Don't know how to handle this or if it should be handled at all but...

A1 on a fast break driving to the hole for a layup B1 running in behind yelling loudly to try to screw up A1's rythme as he lays it up... Hope I described this OK... I'm sure a lot of you have seen this and know what I mean (girls do it A LOT)...

Is there anything wrong with this action and can it be punished ??? I went home with a wicked headache last night because 1 player kept doing this all game....

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again...this is not golf. Yelling is allowed. While it may be annoying, including for the officials, it is perfectly legal.

Take two asprin. ;)

My opinion is and has always been that this is unsporting. It's not in any way part of playing the game. There is no effort to play the ball. In fact, yelling like that is usually an indication that the defender has been beaten badly and can't play defense anymore. I really do think it's unsporting and should be punished by a technical foul.

Unfortunately, my opinion in this case is not supported by the rules. :(

Chuck

I think a "T" is a bit extreme in this case, besides you are opening up too much grey area. Do you start penalizing players when they yell "SHOT"? Let them play

I had this exact thing happen in a Freshman A game (Illinois). The ball handler had badly beaten the defender so the defender came running up behind the player and screamed at the top of his lungs. I immediatley "T" him up for unsportsmanlike conduct and explained to the coach that this can't be done because it puts that offensive player in fear of physical harm to his body from a hard foul from behind and it is just plain unsporting. That same situation will get you a yellow card in soccer. One yellow card in soccer is the equivelant of a techinical foul in that two yellows equal a red and an ejection from the contest. It is always going to be a judgement call but isn't everything we do as an official a judgement call?

Crappy
Immature
Unsporting
Legal

Roll your eyes, exhale, and move on.

Is it specifically in the rules about yelling?

Unless........
 

there is something specifically covered in the rules, this would be a "talking to." And unless it was done as a direct intimidation tactic, let it go. Let these kids have some fun.

Peace

It is specifically NOT IN THE RULES.

Therefore this would be an area not specifically coverd in ther rule book that the referee is allowed to rule on...

Your soccer analogy fails for one reason: it is NOT accpeted as part of playing soccer, and everyone knows it, and everyone knows it will warrant a yellow. In BB, however, whether we like it or not, and whether we think it should be deemed sporting or not, it is an accepted part of the game. A crusade like this is unfair to players who get a T for something that is regular, habitual, and tolerated in the game. Campaign for a rule, sure; go on a solo crusade, no. See responses from Canuck and Chuck.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w_sohl

Quote:

Therefore this would be an area not specifically coverd in ther rule book that the referee is allowed to rule on...

NCAA, Rule 2, Section 3, Art. 1
"The referee shall be empowered to make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

You wanna yank out 2-3-1 for a kid yelling at a layup?

Have fun dining on that Can-O-Worms...

Nooooooooooo,
 

"Therefore this would be an area not specifically coverd in ther rule book that the referee is allowed to rule on..."

Not correct at all.

As we know laws are also impacted by tradition (as laws of the land are).

There is no reccomendation nor comment about yelling in the "FED" or NCAA book. This DOES NOT mean that it is to be handled by an official using:

"The referee shall be empowered to make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules."

As many have said it is not against the rules to yell.

To call it is OOO, in my opinion.

And let's NOT get into trying to call it a safety issue, OK!

Hmmmm! Could call it taunting?

Then again...... :D

Reminds me of that old "what to do if a player does not take the ball OOB on a throw-in after a made basket" debate.

:eek:

Here's one that I saw the other day.
Watching the JV game before mine and at the end of the second quarter, I notice one of the officials going over to the fans and he says something, and keeps holding up two fingers, and says, "read the rule".
So, just for curiosity's sake, I ask him what that was all about. He says,"the fans were counting 5,4,3,2,1" when there was actually more time than that on the clock!:confused::rolleyes:
They actually got a girl on the visiting team to throw up a shot with :10 left!:D
I told him to stop wasting his time.:rolleyes:

Hmmm. Can't be both, now, can it?

Chuck

Au contraire. If you recall, my opinion in fact was supported by the rules in that case!! As was made perfectly clear in this year's rulebook!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/derr.gif

Chuck

This year's high school yearbook. :p

Yearbook? Rulebook.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Feb 13th, 2003 at 12:22 PM]

Sure it can. Putting in the starters when syou'r up 127-3 is unsporting, but certainly legal; Refusing to shake hands with the other coach is unsporting, but legal; etc. . . .

Good point, hawk. But if a player on the floor commits an unsporting act, then that's not legal. I mean, that's exactly why we have unsportsmanlike technical fouls.

I agree that there isn't a rule specifically adressing this but I definitely consider yelling at a player shooting a layup an unsporting act. However, I would probably talk to the player when I had the chance and tell them not to do it again rather than give them a 'T' right away. Since this situation usually only happens once maybe twice a game I may let the first one slide and then talk to them if it happens again, but I don't think this warrants a 'T' right off the bat.

Unsporting acts are not all defined, they are ill-defined.
We judge whether the act was worthy of penalty or whether the act is characteristic of ill-breeding, poor coaching, or a general lack of savoire faire.
This is a judgment we are paid to make, much like the varying levels of cursing. We draw our lines.

Now, I ask, <LI> is it better to judge the act of yelling an unsporting act and not calling it,<LI> is it better to judge the act not unsporting and not calling it,<LI> is it better to judge the act not unsporting and calling it?
mick

Does the fake "cutting under" the shooter also fall into this category? Figure it does, because I've never seen a call based on that action.

Easy cure
 

Use some preventative officiating (hs level mainly). Quietly tell the player you do not want them doing that anymore and 99% if the time they will stop. Problem solved w/ 2 seconds of PO.

Throw-in not OOB
 

Could someone either recap the "throw-in" thread or point me to the link?

Rich

Re: Throw-in not OOB
 

After a made basket by A, B doesn't take the ball out of bounds before "throwing it in."

Options (prior to this year): 1) Immediate violation; 2) Wait five seconds for violation; 3) Blow the whistle and bring them back to do it correctly.

This year's clarification: 1)

Re: Re: Throw-in not OOB
 

There were never any options prior to this year. It was always a violation from the very begining.

I knew I could get this thing cranked up again!

I am so proud of myself! :D

Sigh! Don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Unsporting?
 

Just because we personally do not like some tactics (like yelling at shooter) we just can't make up T's.
Players and coaches do all kinds of dumb things, but I try not to inject my personal judgements about the alleged acts.

I have had a similar situation. A1 was dribbling down the court and B1 who is guarding A1 is screaming Ball, Ball, Ball right in her face (within 2 inches). That is as unsporting as you can get and I Td the girl. IABBO board 12 clinician agreed.

Look at the motive for the action and I can not conceive how it does not fall into the parameters of an unsportsman- like act.

Chuck, the rule to use is 10.3.8 "...not limited to ..." Good enough for me in my situation.

As for the original situation, I would have to be there to make my decision but am inclined to give a warning about that behaviour and then give a T on the next instance.

BALL BALL BALL
 

That's a Pat Summit special - she has always coached yelling ball, ball, ball on defense. I think the sudden unexpected shout COULD merit a T for unsporting behavior (although it is clearly a more soccer oriented ruling), but this? Annoying as all getout, but yougottabekiddingme. How long have you done girls ball? There one of these teams in every league.

As an aside, on the pro soccer front, I was watching a Premier League game where a guy got carded for calling for the ball when his opponent had it with his back turned. his opponent turned and passed to him, TWEET, yellow card! I actually like some of their sportsmanship standards.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Feb 13th, 2003 at 10:08 PM]

Hawks,

Read the post more clearly. The kid was yelling it within inches like 1-2 inches in her face. Can't get any more unsporting than that. That action has nothing to do with the spirit of the game or sportsmanship. If you can't grasp that, then you have not a clue what sportsmanship is about.

And by the way, I'll take the advice of my clinician who has been teaching officials for more than 30 plus years.

If you told a kid you didn't want them to do this anymore, but they kept doing it, what would you do? I hate it when kids do this but don't see a T warranted by the rule book.

Re: Unsporting?
 

I agree, but yelling to create fear or a distraction is not a tactic, it's not strategy, it's not a skill. It's done only b/c the defender has been completely outplayed and s/he has no other way to try to stop a good play. It's like a defender who gives a "bear hug" to prevent the lay-up. There's no other way to stop the good play by the offense. But that doesn't make it strategy, it's an intentional foul. Same thing with yelling. I wholeheartedly believe that it's outside the rules of sporting behavior. As I've said previously, however, I do not call the T for it.

Chuck

Re: Re: Unsporting?
 

Chuck,
As a player did this actually bother you?

It never bothered me, maybe that's why it <u>doesn't</u> bother me.

mick

Re: Re: Re: Unsporting?
 

Oddly, I don't ever remember it being done when I played. I can't remember one instance from my playing days. Maybe that's why I am so bothered by it now. I don't know. It's clearly unsportsmanlike, tho. :)

Interestingly, while playing soccer in HS, a ball got kicked straight up in the air. My baseball instincts kicked in and I yelled "I got it!" I got my only yellow card in 3 years. :(

Curiously, I've taken to starting all my paragraphs with adverbs :confused:

Chuck

I read it perfectly clearly. We have a dribbler who is allowing a defender to stand with her face literally "2 inches" from the dribblers face? Strains credibility and I have trouble imagining any defender remaining in that position with respect to a moving player, but I'll go with it since it's your story.

Defender is out of position cause she doesn't have her head on the ball. Offensive player should make a move and beat her so she is yelling at air. Beat her and she'll stop doing it. with that said. . .

I didn't say I like this defensive tactic (and yes, it is a tactic from a kid's perspective when they learn it in camps). But an immediate T - you mentioned no warning? To me that is ridiculous, and yes, I have read all you said on it. If you think the kid has gone too far, have the decency to tell her that you won't tolerate it, then T her if it continues and you feel you must.

[added]One more thing on this subject. Since this yelling BALL BALL BALL is regularly done by girls who learn it in defensive drills in camps, what is the allowable distance where you would permit this activity? Can you define that distance for the player you just Td so she knows there is an 18 inch BALL BALL BALL rule for this game? Or would you T them for 2 feet, 10 feet, 20 feet? Is yelling BALL BALL BALL now illegal, or is there a distance where you find it acceptable? I am not being a Smart@$$, just pointing out some of the difficulties you can run into on this call.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Feb 14th, 2003 at 08:16 AM]

I tend to look at the yelling of the word "ball", which by the way is done 90% of the timewhen a dribbler has picked up their dribble, as an indication to their teammates that the ball, from thier perspective, is dead, be aware that a pass may be coming you way soon or come and trap the offensive player. The word shot also is just an indicator to defensive teammates that may have their back to the rim defending a player without the ball that a shot is gone up and it is now time to rebound or flare to the other end for a quick outlet pass. In my situation in an earlier post in this thread the player was beaten, was trailing the play by at least four feet and just screamed at the top of his lungs, not the word shot or ball, just a yell. In my opinion this is very unsporting, was done with the intent to put fear for bodily harm and should be delt with.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unsporting?
 

Seriously, this is funny :D

A yellow card for yelling, "I got it"? Wow.

Interestingly, while playing soccer in HS, a ball got kicked straight up in the air. My baseball instincts kicked in and I yelled "I got it!" I got my only yellow card in 3 years. [/B][/QUOTE]Now if you hadda yelled "I'm a BoSox fan"...
http://www.animationfactory.com/anim...ard_md_wht.gif

Easy there big fella...Hawks Coach has been around this board for a looooonnnngggg time...as far as class and sportsmanship go, you won't find many on this board with more of either one than Hawks has - except maybe Jurassic Ref (sportsmanship anyway :) )... and just because the clinician has been teaching for 30 years doesn't mean he's right...as has been said, there is no rules basis for calling a T in this situation...a quick word to the player and the coach will usually stop it, but if they're smart they will know the rules don't support calling a T...

not specifically, but they do support the official making a judgement call on the issue...

quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
but if they're smart they will know the rules don't support calling a T...



I disagree, the rules require us as officials to interpret each situation and whether they fit the spirit and intent of a particular rule is our judgement. I have T'd a kid for yelling this season, two of them were going for a loose ball the other kid gained control of it and the defender gave an "aaaarrrrrggghhhhh" at the top of his lungs right in the kids face. Whack! As I told the coach, that is CLEARLY unsportsmanlike. I don't know how any reasonable sane person can view it otherwise. Now, am I going to T some girl for yelling ball, ball, ball? Probably not, but it's possible if the situation was such that I deem it unsportsmanlike, it's a T.

[Edited by devdog69 on Feb 14th, 2003 at 10:29 AM]

Thanks for the kind words,Rocky. Did I get marked down on the "class" part for being "persnickety"? Or is it because all of my class just happens to be "second"? :D

Btw,I certainly agree with your assessment of Hawks Coach.As for the "clinician" statement,I've been a clinician,too,and I still train officials-but I've certainly had my butt handed to me on this Forum a few times by some pretty knowledgeable officials when I've screwed up a rule,or it's application.We never stop learning-any of us!You're also right on about the rules not supporting a T in this instance.The only possible scenario that I can think of where a T might be possible is if the yelling was combined with obscenities,or some form of taunting.

I think that the smartest thing that you could do in this particular case is run this one by your local rules interpreter/assigner/clinician/whatever to see how they would like it handled.You definitely do not want to be the only one in your area calling it one way,while everyone else is calling it differently. JMHO.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unsporting?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]...and his baseball skills kicked in & he dropped it :p

FWIW - Here is my 2 cents on this. Since there is nothing specific in the rules covering it I would be hesitant to call a T for Ball, Ball, Ball. Even the warning could be considered out of line with the rules.

All this being said I did have a similar situation years back where I did flagrant T a girl. She would scream in the situations we are talking about. No words but just screaming. I did tell her that she should play ball and cut the theatrics but it was to no avail. I had to calm the opposing coach over the situation at one point. Where the line was crossed is when she screamed at the top of her lungs a few (very few) inches from, and directed to, the ear of the dribbler. As I told her coach this had now become a safety issue and I was not going to jeopardize anyone’s hearing. To his credit all he said was OK.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unsporting?
 

Nuh-uh! I was your classic "great glove/no stick" 2nd baseman. Of course, when I caught the "fly ball" on the soccer field, nobody was very happy. . .

Chuck

It is interesting to me that this topic has generated 4 pages of responses and still no one has been able (in my mind anyway) to show justification, by rule, to call at T. Only interpretive variations (of 10.3.8 ) have been cited, buy IMO this is a big stretch. I agree that all this yelling is annoying, but it is allowed. You may not like it, it may give you a headache, but it simply isn't prohibited.

Someone posted about a defender right in the ball handler's face yelling and called a T. Hawks Coach (I believe) maed a very salient point, if it is the realtive distance that matters, where does that distance end? NCAA and NFHS rules are quite clear about several distance related items, 15 ft for a FT, 19' 9" for a 3pt shot, 6 ft closely guarded, etc., but they make no mention of this distance. Do we arbitrarily decide game by game or by the volume of the yeller? Where does this lead us? Will the day come when player's cannot say anything? What about coaches and teammates on the bench? What if they yell loud? What about the fans? Will they have to stop yelling to?

That is the problem with trying to justify this as a T. It is not supported by rule and becomes random enforcement. IMO, not justified and not good for the game.

I restate...

I tend to look at the yelling of the word "ball", which by the way is done 90% of the timewhen a dribbler has picked up their dribble, as an indication to their teammates that the ball, from thier perspective, is dead, be aware that a pass may be coming you way soon or come and trap the offensive player. The word shot also is just an indicator to defensive teammates that may have their back to the rim defending a player without the ball that a shot is gone up and it is now time to rebound or flare to the other end for a quick outlet pass. In my situation in an earlier post in this thread the player was beaten, was trailing the play by at least four feet and just screamed at the top of his lungs, not the word shot or ball, just a yell. In my opinion this is very unsporting, was done with the intent to put fear for bodily harm and should be delt with.

had this happen the other night actually, JV quarter final. B is losing bad, A steals the ball, B starts screaming. A1 made the layup. The next dead ball i went over to B1 and asked him if he thought it was very nice, and i asked him how much he'd like it if someone of the other team did that to him while he was trying to make a lay up.

Never heard another yelp from either team for the rest of the game.



TR

This is pretty cool.. I have never had 4 replies to any of my posts before never mind 4 pages...

To get back to the basics though... What I stated in the initial post is exactly what w_sohl states below.

It was not the words "SHOT" or "BALL" but just a YELL (picture Charlie Brown when Lucy pulls the football away) as loud as can be while running in behind A1 after getting his a$$ burned on the play.

Here's is some things to ponder....

Would you punish a yell like this if it was directed at you after a foul call?? If so, why is it unsporting at that time??

Why don't we allow the non shooting team to yell at the free throw shooter??? Oh... that's right... there is a rule against that.. disconcertion.... What makes this different???

Look at my signature line that I quoted from mick... If this yelling causes A1 to do something in reaction to the yell that causes A1 to be at a disadvantage then we have to call it.... the question is what ??? Perhaps in this case a warning is fine, that's all I was trying to get at is what are the thoughts here... I like the discussion it has generated though.

So if I am reading cmckenna and w_sohl correctly, they will T a player for running up behind the shooter and yelling, but it's ok to run up behind the shooter and yell "Shot" or "Ball" because that's normal???? I don't get it...

And Jurassic, I marked you down on class because you never got me that brownpop you owed me from back in December...and I think I need a second one after reading this thread!!!

I'm flattered. :)

1) I never said I T'd him... as a matter of fact, I did nothing...

2) The reference to "Shot" and "Ball" in my reply was to simply say that my original post did not state these... only the annoying yell...

3) I never said it was OK or not OK to yell "Shot" or "Ball" just that this is not what was said in my situation

4) This post was started just to hear opinions and get others perspectives. Isn't that what this forum is for?

cmckenna,

Well, rockyroad did write, "...<u><b>if</b></u> I am reading cmckenna ... correctly..."
After umpteen threads, he had an out. ;)
mick

Signs that the apocalypse is upon us :D

Hawk Coach,

In my post, what I wanted to convey was the unsportsmanlike behaviour of the defensive player. It does not really matter what the player is yelling, it is the act of one player putting his or her face within an inch or two of another player's face and YELLING. (imagine a drill sergeant with his face in his soldiers face yelling and barking. That was what the girl was doing in the situation that I gave a T). That to me is unsportsmanlike. The act is meant to intimidate or frustrate the player. There is no intention to play defense within the spirit or intent of the game.

I did talk to the clinician earlier in the day but did not bring up my situation from the past. His advice (limited version) ranged first going to the player, then the coach and then a T if needed for unsporting behavior. That is how he said to handle the ball, ball, ball talk. By gosh, had a JVB player do it tonight and followed his approach and it worked.

Hawk has well reasoned thoughts on the game and rules and hopefully (I believe he doesn't) he does not teach his players to "value winning above the value instilling the highest ideals of character" as it appears Pat Summit does and those who copied her.


When I see or judge a player's actions to be unsportsmanlike, I almost always assess a T automatically. I'm sure I've missed some but not when I see it for the second time.

Under FIBA it is allowed to yell 'shot', as long it is yelled face2face. If someone is yelling things like 'BOO' or 'shot' but from, for example, behind, clapping or something like that, it's a T. Simple as 1,2,3. (Stated in one of the FIBA interpretations).

What if (just asking here) a player, who has been beat on the dribble, yells "rebound" or "help" rather than "shot," alerting her teammates that she needs some help?

snaqwells

FIBA
 

FIBA-it's a T. good to hear. I ref FIBA rules occasionaly. What section is that under in the rules?

Posting these again for everyone to chew on...
 

Here's is some things to ponder....

Would you punish a yell like this if it was directed at you after a foul call?? If so, why is it unsporting at that time??

Why don't we allow the non shooting team to yell at the free throw shooter??? Oh... that's right... there is a rule against that.. disconcertion.... What makes this different???

Re: Posting these again for everyone to chew on...
 

Not a fair comparison. You also can't play defense during a FT. The whole point of the free throw is that its a free opportunity to score. So that's why you can't yell during the FT.

As should be clear from my previous posts in this thread, I do not equate yelling with playing defense, however.

Chuck

Not a fair comparison. You also can't play defense during a FT. [/B][/QUOTE]Then why do the girls along the lane lines always insist on trying to put their arms over top of their neighbour's arms?:confused:

I'm sure that this comment is sarcastic, right? There is no good reason for doing it. It's something that some bozo taught at camp or practice.

But just to be clearer, you can't play defense against the free throw shooter. Better, JR? ;)

I'm sure that this comment is sarcastic, right? [/B][/QUOTE]Moi? :confused: