Maybe you have covered this- I am new to the board, but I searched and could not find a thread...

Does each call stand on it's own, or do we need to consider the previous series of calls?

I am not talking about consistency - the calling of hand checks, palming or traveling etc. that we need to apply equally as they occur.

I went to a camp this summer, and they seemed to address it by talking about "sequence" Meaning do we really want to make a series of tough calls against the same team. I understand it is a slippery slope, and absolutly at times this is going to occur. But If I understood them correctly- and it was my first camp- so the possibility exists that I misunderstood- I need to consider the previous calls to some degree, and not just make each call in a vacuum.

If we have a block/charge call on one end, and we call it a block, then we have a very similar situation on the other end very soon afterwards- would you feel any reluctance(if that is the right word) to call it a charge. Meaning the same team came out with both calls.

Now I know you can say I just call em as I see em, but to make this more clear, I am saying they were both very, very close block/charges with enough contact that a call needed to be made.

This is a theoretical example, and I am exagerating the situation to make my point, but I hope I have made my question clear. So don't focus on my example- focus on the question please. Or give examples that help me understand if you would. Thanks

IMHO, as soon as you start worrying about the last call, you get into the world of "make up" calls, and tread a path you don't want to be on. IMHO the only manner in which you should consider past calls is with regard to consistency, and you should not pay attention to who got the last call.

You should be aware of how the game is being called, by your partners & by yourself. You cannot be consistent if the calls come from a vacuum. For the sake of consistency we remind each other "if it's called one way on this end make sure it's called the same way on the other end". I believe this addresses your question and I think we can all agree with this. Now, there's a whole 'nother can of worms related to "equalizing" fouls and "spreading whistles" among the crew (ie don't call too many in a row on a particular team and don't call too many in a row yourself). Of course, this assumes the teams are equal and competetive. I think we might all agree that this is the ideal situation.

Just call your game.
 

You have to call your own game. Each call should be separate from other calls, if you are calling the obvious. If you make a horsesh!t call, try not to make it again. The only thing I think you should mirror is what you called at one part of the game. So if you called a handcheck early, call it late if it took place. Other than that, let the game come to you and have a short memory when you mess up.

I personally am not of the camp that believes that if you call a block on one end, you must call a block on the other end. You might have two completely different kind of block/charge calls.

Peace

When I train new refs, I cover this emphatically. I am adamant that each call stands on its own. Say you've called 5 in a row against team A. So what? If they deserved it, you would be doing the game a disservice by not calling each one.

Officials who are afraid of "how it might look" if they call without regard to previous calls are incompetent cowards.

Now, I'll tell you how I really feel.

Mark nailed it.

hack=hack
block=block
charge=charge

Coach: "How come it's a charge at the other end and a block at my end?"

Me: "Because their player had position and yours didn't."

Someone mentioned a while back that coaches who say "call it both ways" really mean "call it MY way", and I couldn't agree more.

Coach: "Fouls are 6-2 you know"

Me: "Yeah, better tell your kids not to hack so much, or the other team'll be shooting bonus."

At the lower levels, certainly make each call independently.

As you progress to higher levels, all the way to NCAA, I think the philosophy of sequence and equity becomes more of an issue.

Actually the people at the camp pushing the squence idea were college refs.

I don't think anyone is saying that you can't have a charge here and then a block there. What they're saying is that if the defender is moving slightly but takes it in the chest and we call the charge on this end, then when the defender is moving slightly but takes it in the chest we will also call it a charge on that end.

There are bang/bang plays that could go either way. If we get more than one of these, they should be called the same way. That's all. Be aware of the bang-bang plays and how your partner called them. Then when you get one, call it the same way. Is that really cowardly?

Chuck

Exactly.

Why? You should call it the way you think it should be called regardless of how your partner called it. Maybe your partner called it wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If you doubt that you called it correctly, then use that doubt as a learning tool for the future, but don't call something one way when you think it should be called the other just because someone else called it that way.

I know you want to show consistency throughout the game and this consistency is judged by the coaches as a tandem effort of both of you, but I can't justify making an incorrect call on purpose.

Good grief...no one ever said to make an incorrect call on purpose...and no call is made in a vaccuum - maybe to us the refs they are, but not to the coaches or the players...if my partner nails a block-charge call at one end, and then I have a play that looks the same, feels the same, smells the same, etc - I had better call it the same way at the other end...that's call sequencing - it's got nothing to do with making incorrect calls or being cowardly or anything else...it's simply good game management skills...

I get it(I think). "Call Sequencing" means you try to make the RIGHT call EACH time.What a novel concept! Man,I wish they woulda had that when I started. All I ever heard was "be consistent".

JR, that is funny
 

I tought for this entire thread that "that" is what was meant by sequencing.

I have never considered the "other" side of the coin (I'd call that "keeping the game even") as described by some in this thread.

I strongly disagree with letting game conditions dictate a call (somewhere there is a thread that says 1)'Know who are the stars and 2) make sure a fifth foul on a good player is really a clear foul) as directed by a couple of posters.

Each play is an individual happening . . . if you are consistant this concept (sequencing) becomes unimportant.

Maybe we're wrong JR, but it seems pretty clear to me.

The "real" Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 13th, 2003 at 05:04 PM]

Don't think so much! You are simply there to report what happens. You don't really decide if it was a charge/block so much as you report wether it was or not. The players decide, you just tell everyone what happened.
If someone asks you what time it is and you say that it is 2:25, and you are asked again in 5 minutes you would say it was 2:30 (assuming your watch works!). Same with officiating, you just tell everyone what happened.

Or the right no-call...it really does have to do with being a "team" on the floor...

BIG TEE,to me "sequencing" and "consistency" just seem to be about the exact same thing.It also just seems to me that,every ten years or so,someone wants to re-invent the wheel,and rename some of the standard concepts of officiating.Of course,it only helps to be "sequencing" if you do happen to be consistently getting the calls right.

A horse is a horse
Of course,of course...:D

-edited to differentiate between "Tee"s.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 13th, 2003 at 03:21 PM]

Cosistency/Sequencing
 

Why be consistent (or in proper sequence) when you could be just plain correct. Get the call right. As Kornheiser says "That's It, That's the list!"

Call Consistency, sequencing and you just confuse the issue. Consistency implies that you should allow one bad call damn you to make bad calls all game, and sequencing makes it sound like one call directly leads to another. Both are bad messages.

Make the right call. If you do that the world will be your oyster!

Agree completely,Rocky.You always want to have as much consistency within your crew as possible.'Taint always possible,but that's what we should strive for.

It's a little more complicated than that, don't you think, hab? I mean, jeez, my 7-year-old daughter can tell you the time. That's just a silly statement.

Chuck

Uh,that's basically what just about everybody has been saying,believe it or not. They've just used different ways to actually say it.

Btw, "Les Habitants sont la"! :D

Not really. The point I am making is that you are just reporting what happened, not determining what happened. In baseball, the umpire does not decide if the player is safe or out, they just report if they are. It is not up to us as officials to decide if it is a block or charge, the rulebook and the players do that, we just report on what we have seen. Sort of like looking at your watch.
If you try to get into deciding what is what you are then using your own criteria rather than what in the rulebook. If the rulebook is consistent (the print doesn't change from game to game) and we follow the rulebook, we will be consistent.
My point is that emphasizing consistency gives people licsence to freelance. This happens in baseball (ironically citing the same sport for different reasons) where it is OK for every ump to have different strike zone as long as they are consistent. That principle does not acknowledge the fact that there is only ONE strike zone in the rules. Likewise, there is only one definition of blocking in the basketball rules. We should try to stick to that rather than our own interpretation, even if ours is consistent.
Also, I know that accomplishing this is impossible, but we should try anyway. As soon as I call the perfect game I am retiring!

I stand by statement. It's just not as simple as that, hab. If the ball goes OOB off a red player, but you thought that it went off white, are you reporting what happened or deciding? If B1 contacts A1 slightly just A1 is about to catch the ball, then the ball goes off B1's hand OOB, what do you do? If you're a good official you say, "out of bounds" and give the ball back to A1. Now, did that official decide what happened, or merely report it?

Chuck

I am consistently lost as to what your point is,but please don't try to explain it again to me.I'm pretty sure that I disagree with it,anyway.

There is no great reality to be found!
 

Your call is the reality. What you see is what happened, not vice versa. Hab, you look for a standard that none will reach. It is the standard that replay has tried, and failed, to achieve - perfect officiating based on perfect knowledge of facts.

Everyone wants a game officiated on perfect facts, perfect rule interpretations, etc. Nobody will ever have one. Games are officiated by people making imperfect judgments based on observations that are shaped by position on the court, temperament at the time of the call, knowledge and experience.

You should always improve your rules knowledge, always try to officiate to the letter and spirit of the rule, work together to achieve more consistency in the field of officiating. But don't ever set a goal of perfection, because you are shooting for something that doesn't exist. Just enjoy the improvements you bring to the game.

BTW - the person telling you the time isn't reporting you a fact - they are reporting what they think their watch says, and they or their watch may not be correct. Even if it is, if you are using their report to make a decision, your concept of time is not necessarily theirs. :)

Hawks Coach,

Good point about the watch.

Also as above, you are reporting what you saw. You can only report on what you have seen, and that could be wrong, but perfection is a long way from where I am standing.

....does anybody really know what time it is?....

Dude

Nope,but I know the way to San Jose...

And I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night!

...does anybody really care??...