NFHS case play list?
 

Team A is behind by three points when A–1, in front of the team B bench, attempts a 3-point try at the horn. B-6 comes off the bench and blocks the ball just after A–1 releases the ball. Official charges team B with a flagrant technical foul and awards team A three free throws. Is the official correct?

--I remember this play as a NFHS case play on the website a few years back-but can't find it. Can anyone help me find it? If I remember correctly NFHS doesn't save them on the net so there was a thread that stored them on this message board somewhere-but I can't locate that either.

The official is incorrect. The correct penalty is 2 Ts.

http://forum.officiating.com/search.php?searchid=339116

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2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)

What if A2 was fouled while in the act?

Can a non-player commit a personal foul?

Exactly... I'm just thinking what if during the block, he knocks down the shooter as well?
But as you pointed out, a personal foul can only be committed by a legal "player".

A personal foul can only be committed by a player. In this case, the substitute would not be able to commit a personal foul.
However, I think the contact by the substitute is important in determiningwhether the act is unsporting, for the block shot only, or a flagrant, for the illegal contact.

I believe coming off the bench to participate in a EOG situation & affecting the opponents opportunity to tie the game, in it & of itself is unsporting.

If flagrant, it would have to be a flagrant personal (live ball) not technical. I dont see merely knocking down a shooter ever being a flagrant foul as it has nothing to do with violent or savage acts.

No, bench personnel cannot commit personal fouls. Any foul committed by bench personnel would be technical. If the foul were flagrant, it would be a flagrant technical.

I would think that bench personnel coming onto the court and interfering with the play by making contact with a player would be flagrant in just about any case.

Yes, it is a live ball but it is not really a contact foul. Contact fouls are committed by players. ANYTHING a non-player does is a technical foul.

And, it doesn't have to be violent or savage when we're talking about T's...just a extreme or gross unsporting misbehavior.

Would the penalty remain two technical fouls had the blocked shot been a two-point try?

Personally I'm still T'ing for the entering, and flagrant T for interfering...regardless of if it's a two or three

Hmmm. If a bench player enters the game during a live ball, isn't that player now a legal player? 3-3-3

OTOH, once you see that player enter, you've got a dead ball due to a technical foul, and thus any contact after that is dead ball contact and this entire half of the thread is moot.

You need to check the definition of a technical foul in 4-17. You will see that part of the wording is "a foul by a non-player" or something similar.
Therefore, such a foul would have to be a technical foul.

I don't believe so. The basis of the NFHS ruling was that only one technical foul was not enough to compensate the offended team for being deprived of the three-point attempt since they could only score two points from the ensuing free throws, thus two technicals and four FTs were required for fairness. That would not be the case on a two-point attempt.

No, the definition of a player is one of the five team members LEGALLY on the court during playing time. A team member entering illegally wouldn't meet that standard.

What you are referring to is the provision that makes a team member a legal player once the ball becomes live, if there had been some sort of illegal substitution during a dead ball period.

It is two very different situations and 3-3-3 is only applicable to the latter.

It's definitely not written for this situation, and the way it's written leaves some potential holes, IMO.

Situation 1:
Official counts 5 for each team and administers the throw-in. After about 30 seconds of action, A6 commits a PC/charging foul.

Table informs the official that A6 had entered during live play immediately prior to receiving the pass.

Was he a legal player? What sort of foul do you charge?

Not a legal player as each team may only have FIVE legal players at any one time. So this is a technical foul. I would ignore the play itself and simply charge the team T for having more than five team members participating.

BTW that very rule and T demonstrates the inability of trying to apply your citation to such situations. If the ball of dead for a throw-in and then play was restarted with one team having six on the court, your citation would make them all legal players. That cannot be the case.

Okay, let's assume A5 leaves the court and sits on the bench because he happened to be closest to the bench and realized A6 had come onto the court. When, if ever, does A6 become legal?

Or, an alternative.

Following a multiple substitution, the official miscounts and A begins the play with 4 players. A6 jumps in mid-play, catches the pass, and runs over B1. As the official reports the PC foul, the table informs him that A6 did not enter legally. Was A6 ever a legal player?

So if A6 had scored a basket during the timeframe and then on the ensuing throw-in committed a foul you would do exactly what when you discover/are informed that A6 is an illegal 6th player?

Okay, so you guys are going to make me actually think about these scenarios. Fine. I'll ponder the situations for a few hours and then post my final thoughts.

Right now, I'm leaning towards any points scored count and penalizing not only the team with a T for more than five participating (or an illegal substitution T to a particular individual, if appropriate for the circumstances) AND penalizing any contact fouls by a non-player as technical fouls to that individual.

Until then...shut up. ;)

Ok, I have become convinced that both a team technical foul and an individual technical foul are appropriate if there are six in the game and the sixth man makes a contact foul.
Any points scored or time consumed prior to the official recognizing the problem must count as normal.

If A5 departs during live play and A6 enters, then that situation is handled differently. There must be an individual T to the illegally entering substitute and a 2nd one to A6 if he fouls during the ensuing action. Yes, that would DQ him. Harsh, but this isn't hockey. Teams can't sub during live play.

Wow.