I was just curious your thoughts on this practice. I use it quite often for a trailing team if the game is close and they are trying to close the gap. I ask the coach if he would like me to grant a time out on a made basket. That way you don't lose time trying to recognize the time-out, or, in my case tonight in my high school game, you have a real soft spoken coach that can't get himself heard above the crowd noise.
It worked well for me tonight, and has other times before.....

...thoughts? Is there anything in the NF rulebook to address this practice? Just curious what you guys think...

I don't But I usually look at the coach in cases where I think a TO would be appropriate. Actually, I'm pretty good at guessing when they want to burn one. Scary, huh? :D

so do I, but tonight I saw the coach for team B talking to my co-official, but not visibly requesting a time-out. I told my co to tell the coach that if he wanted one, to show us with something we could see, because we had a big rival game and the crowd noise was deafening.


...both sides of the crowd were equally pissed off...I guess that means we were consistent;)

If you're pissing have of 'em off with every call, your doing a good job. ;)

Better to just glance over at the coach, and be ready to acknowledge TO immediately. Accomplishes the same thing.

And what happens if the other coach expects the same thing but for some reason you get caught the next time down the court and can't do it? Gives him an excuse to howl.

I don't think we should be initiating any more conversation with the coaches than is absolutely necessary. Always be receptive and approachable, of course, but let them initiate.

but I still don't see the problem in requesting that from the coach. If you do it quietly and in a one-on-one conversation you won't have any "eavesdroppers" to worry about, and if the other coach has a problem with it, just tell him that you would give him the same consideration if he were in the same shoes. I have used it quite a bit this year and NEVER have run into a problem yet....


....watch, now in my first playoff game some damn drama is going to come about from this..damn this board!! damn it straight to HELL!!

Just joshin guys, was really interested in what you thought!

I think the same thing as Canuckrefguy. The FED rulebook covers it under rule 5-8-3-"Grants a player's/head coaches oral or visual request for a time-out". That's pretty specific as far as I'm concerned.You might be bending the rules to aid one coach,but,at the same time,you're screwing the other coach by illegally granting a TO when there has been no actual request made.You've just created an unfair advantage for the one team by not following the rule,as written.JMO.

Although it is not the worst action....
 

I would NOT recommend the "reminder" I-am-looking-for-you- to-request-a-TO chat.

I would recommend that you stress the need for a distintive visual request in your pre-game meeting with the coaches.

Granted, the majority of the games I work I can hear just about every word the coach speaks. However, I have had games which involved a soft-spoken coach and a loud crowd. In one case, the soft-spoken coach requested a TO, verbally only, and it was missed.

When she approached me about her frustration, I suggested that she add a visual cue to her request, such as a "T" or a closed fist. She responded "and I stood up too!" Unfortunately, she was standing at various times throughout the game.

I will also ask the coach if he wants a TO on certain plays. It is done quietly with no big production. This is done only if I am standing by him/her. I will not go across the floor to ask or do anything else to draw attention to the conversation.

If the coach says he does want a timeout in that situation, as soon as the ball goes thru the hoop I grant it. He did make an oral request. :)

Here's a question I've always had on granting time outs. Some coaches hold up a fist, and expect me to call time out. I never grant that. I'm pretty sure it's not an NFHS mechanic to call time out. Is this a proper signal in NCAA or something? Heck, many teams have a play called "fist."

Thanks JR for beating me to the punch on this.

Jeremy - You should never put yourself into the game like this. You are opening yourself up for trouble if the other coach/AD wants to take it further. The clock is on the side of the leading team, as it should be, and you have just taken it away from them. Sorry if the coach is soft spoken but that is his problem not yours.

My first fist guy last night in a girls varsity game. Never saw it before, either, but I heard his oral request just the same.

The best signal for a coach is a T (or hands on the shoulders if they want a 30). Fist?

Rich

I had never seen the fist used as a signal for TO, or been instructed to accept it. A lot of teams, and I mean a lot, have a play that is signaled with the fist held up by the point guard.
Yet, my partner in a JH game Thursday instructed a player to use the fist rather than use both hands to call a TO while dribbling. His concern was that the dribble is interupted if both of the player's hands are busy, thus removing the possibility of a TO.
Seems to me the hand on the shoulders would be most appropriate with that concern, the coach can always overrule and request a full.

snaqs

This is really picking nits.

The problem with the fist is what happens if the other team has a play that is designated by a fist in the air? I can see it now, team B coach or point guard has his hand up in a fist calling a play and you call a TO. :( Had a game the other day and the coach knew just what to do, while standing he would give the 30 or the 60 second signal while verbally calling TO.


Use of the football T signal, not a good idea. There is a recent thread either here or on the other board where a disgruntled coach want a technical on an opposing player and got a TO instead.

[/B][/QUOTE]


Use of the football T signal, not a good idea. There is a recent thread either here or on the other board where a disgruntled coach want a technical on an opposing player and got a TO instead.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Coach actually got a T 'cause he didn't have any TO's left. I think it's funny, since he shouldn't have been trying to officiate anyway.

snaqs

I am not sure if i missed this or not in the discussion. I have had on about 1/2 dozen occasions a player or coach come up to me and request a TO if a FT is made and I grant it. I NEVER ask the coach if he wants a TO however.

Coach's perspective
 

When I first read the subject of this thread, I wrongly assumed that someone would be complaining about a partner who did this. I am completely amazed that any ref would ask a coach in advance if they will want a timeout. It is wrong, totally wrong IMO. You are providing aid to that coach, period. If you know it is a situation where a smart coach might want a TO on a made basket, then you should look for it - any good ref would do so. You should not suggest this strategy to the coach, nor should you grant a TO that is not requested.

I have seen it already discussed on this board where the coach tries to request the TO before the made basket (e.g., "on a make, I want the TO ref"). Even when it comes from the coach, you cannot give a TO based on advance notification - it must be requested at the time. It is fine to put you on notice so you know to look for it, in case you did not already. But it cannot be granted unless it is specifically requested at the time the coach wants it.

It is especially obvious that this action is wrong, because Jeremy suggests he can do it without anybody hearing. If it is the right thing to do, why would you care? If you have to do it without others hearing it, you know that if someone did hear, they would complain, and you would have no way to defend your action.

This is amazing one-sided assistance which I cannot fathom providing to either team in a competition. Any of you that are doing it, I hope you cease immediately and go to a process of anticipating and looking for the TO call.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Feb 10th, 2003 at 03:17 PM]

Thanks for your input coach, I did NOT use that technique in my college game tonight, and the coach didn't get his time-out granted because the crew didn't see him request it. If that were you, how would you feel? BUT it is not our duty as officials to try and "help out" one side or the other, and I will cease and disist on the practice. I DID feel bad for the coach. 2 point loss.

Jeremy, I'm honestly confused. You can remember to ask a coach if he wants a TO in such a situation but you can't remember to take a glance in his direction when you know he's in a position where he might want one? That doesn't make sense to me. Help me out.

Don't know if this is why, but NCAA women use a closed fist to signal that it is time for a media timeout.

Carried over to your partner??

Re: Coach's perspective
 

Where is that written, coach? I have to admit, I was only asked to do that once this year, and the free throw was not made, so the TO was not granted. I was wondering about doing it, but have to ask why I "cannot" give him the TO in that situation.

snaqwells

If they say it immediately prior to a FT, I would have less problem with it than if they said it prior to an inbounds play and a made basket in the flow of play. But either way, by rule, you can only grant a TO when it is appropriately requested. Nothing in the rule says you can "advance request" a TO in anticipation of the situation arising where you will actually be allowed to have the TO.

The rule is request a TO, and if you are authorized to have a TO granted at the time of the request, your request should be granted.

As posted before in this thread, NFHS rule 5-8-3 states that you grant a TO only for an oral or visual request.If you don't see or hear a request,there's no request to grant.

Ya know, it's not hard for a coach to do this right and get the ref to call the TO quickly:

Coach: "Ref, I want a TO if we make the basket."
Ref: "Thx for the heads-up, but you gotta ask for it once he makes it."

Basket made, ref knows what's happening, turns to look at coach, who signals for TO.

Picking nits.

I appreciate the coach who gets my attention before the second of two and signals to me he wants a timeout if the FT is good.

That's good enough for me. He's entitled to a timeout in that situation, and he's freed me to officiate the rebound. He's also gained no advantage not intended by the rules.

Rich

Rich
What rebound are you watching? The FT is good. Any action afterward before the ball is made live is incidental. If he tells you he wants a TO, he can call it as the ball goes through the net. He also can tell all his players to simultaneously call TO when the ball goes through the net, so you can't possibly miss it, even if you are in a tunnel vision mode and seeing only the players under the basket.

Like I said, I understand a little bit how you can justify it better on a made FT. But in the end, coach can easily have players request a TO that you can see and recognize after the FT. He should coach his players to call that TO, call it himself as well, and not count on the ref.

One thing also to consider with respect to deviating, even slightly, from the rules. Others will follow the letter of the law, and the coach who was trained by you will expect the TO to be automatically granted. If he doesn't get the TO because his refs in the next game follow the letter of the rule, he will now be upset when he doesn't get an automatic TO.

It's best to keep to the rules and teach the coaches the right way to do it.

That's your opinion, and I just happen to disagree with it.

I don't know of a single official in my area that wouldn't grant this time out.

To me, there are bigger fish to fry, like why I can't get my picture taken with any future NBA players :)

Rich

Coach are you going to want a time-out if this shot is good?

Yes.

OKAY. I WILL BE WATCHING FOR YOUR SIGNAL.

Then what's the point? Just watch for the signal. Seems the only reason to have the above dialogue is to suggest to the coach that he should want a TO -- which is, in MHO, a really, really bad idea.

I'd reword it:

Coach: I want a time-out if this shot is good.

Ref: OKAY. I WILL BE WATCHING FOR YOUR SIGNAL.

hawkk
you are correct. Dialogue should be:

C: On the make I want a TO.

R: OK coach, on the make, I will be watching for your signal.

Guess Public and I crossed replies - but we both agree!