How far do you push?
 

I recently posted a question on a BC call that was made that shouldn't have been. My question to all of you is how far do you argue your position if your partner disagrees with you? Assume you feel 100% you are correct. Before you answer I understand that ideally there is a Referee and an Umpire and their is a hierarchy but some assignments do not differentiate. And also based on the coverage areas this shouldn't be a common occurrence but nonetheless when it does happen, what do you use to determine?

Calling official, or the official in whose primary the situation occurred, gets the final call. I have only approached partners on BC calls three times. Two initiated in my area as lead, and the other was just a brain fart but I approached because he asked me to.

If you do approach, make it fast. If you can't change his mind quickly, let it go.

Ideally, once the ball goes up everyone should become an R. The R just has more pre/post game duties...

That being said, when my crew disagrees on calls or rules I've found that sending a non-threatening email with the rule & caseplay (if applicable) the next morning usually works well.
During the game, all you can do is provide info, tell them what the rule is & use the phrase that pays. This shouldn't be a long drawn out conference... he's either making it right or sticking with his call.

I feel comfortable using that technique whether I'm the U99 or the R, but you gotta know your audience.

Is the official a veteran that doesnt attend camps anymore & perhaps is behind on newer rules/mechanics?

Is the official tight with decision makers that could affect your progression if you rub them the wrong way?

Is the official interested in improving or is he there to collect a check & could care less?

This depends entirely on whom your partner is and who had the call. If it is in someone's PCA and they made a judgment call, I am probably going to allow them to live and die with that. All you can do is give information and they have to decide if your information is enough to make a change.

If the person is also the Referee or they are the more senior official or they just are not a good partner, this also might change how I approach the situation. Some of these individuals that I just mentioned would be more than happy to get information from you and do what is right whether that is make a change or stick with what they have.

I believe that it is our job to get it right, but the reality is we are not going to get it right a lot of the time. It is OK if we make a mistake or if we screw up a judgment from time to time. Not all situations can be corrected or should be corrected just because we have a different opinion. So that conversation should be short and based on what we talked about in pre-game. If there truly is a disagreement, then talk after the game in a constructive manner to see what happened.

Peace

Technically, this doesn't really have anything to do with it, does it? Even if your partner makes a grossly incorrect call all the way across the court in front of you, (it happens, I know) by rule there's no way for you to change it.

Sorry, I was thinking of situations when a no-call would get discussed. Not sure why, as that really doesn't make sense now that I reflect on it.

Unless my partner asks, I don't do or say anything about his calls in his area. If he calls in my area and I had a different opinion of the play, I'll ask him what he saw AFTERWARDS IN THE LOCKERROOM either at halftime or following the game. Most of the time, I'll just say thank you after hearing from him.
It is very difficult to question the judgment of a partner. I would recommend refraining from doing so. People get super sensitive, so leave that to the assignors or observers.

I will discuss a rule application with a partner. Again only if he asks about a play in his area. If it was in mine, now we have a good opportunity to start the conversation with what did you see there.

I never go to a partner on the court during the game about a call. He made it. He can answer for it. If he wants help, he can ask.

On

Nevada, let me ask.

Play:
Freshman game.
FC spot throw-in along the endline. You're the L.
A1 launches the ball so that it lands at the division line. A2 runs and retrieves the ball, finally touching the ball around the FT line extended in the BC.

Your inexperienced partner calls a BC violation. Do you offer help?

Not a common occurance in a V game, but there are areas where 2nd year officials might be working a small school V game, so....

Nope, he has to learn the hard way. I'm not going to make a big deal out of an incorrect rules application during a freshman game. I'm sure that this isn't the only thing that such an official is doing incorrectly.

If there is significant booing from the spectators and complaining from the coach, the official will remember the play and it will probably come up during the postgame. That is the proper time for teaching/instructing.


Let me add that I am one of the main instructors for my HS association. I have formed a few opinions about how to teach officials over the past several years. Some things work and some don't. What we are after is improvement from game to game and season to season. The key is to get people to retain what is taught to them. Often a live and learn experience is more memorable than a partner trying to fix stuff for a person on the court.

I am also quite aware of what we teach our new officials, so if they don't listen in the classroom or during the on-court demonstrations prior to the season, then I have little sympathy for them. We now have more officials than we have games for, so those who work hard, apply what we teach, and do some extra studying on their own are the only ones who will be sticking around. We give the new folks a couple of seasons to show us that they are trying and improving, but we aren't going to have someone just taking up space for ten years at the freshman level. We have other people who need those games for developing.

I'm just getting done with my second year of high school basketball. I had my first varsity games last year.

I agree that to make the error leaves a memorable scar on the officials that care. I had a couple of misapplication of rules last year, luckily none during any of my varsity games, but I was very happy that I had good mentors and people that are equally trying to get better.

I have found when a partner asks me "what did you have on that play" I may need to go look up a rule or case play. But by simply asking the question it sears the event in my mind. I can guarantee I will never misapply those rules that I messed up last year.

State tournament game... same thoughts Nevada?

Personally, I'm going to try and give my partner information to try and change the call. If he doesn't want to change his call then I've done everything I can. I don't particular like the mindset that we should stick with a rules misapplication and keep quiet even if he have additional info we can give that can correct this.

New sitch:

Varsity game.
Live action, ball goes into the lane. A1 attempts a pass to A2, but it's tipped by B1 (also in the lane) into the backcourt where A3 retrieves it and is the first to touch.

T calls BC because he didn't see the tip.

edit....was typing up my play when someone came into my office....i hit submit a couple hours later only to see that Snaq posed essentially the same question. ;)

Or this play....

Championship game, 15 seconds left, score within one basket ether way. A2 shoots and misses. A1, inches from the endline right in front of you lead, gets the rebound and finds himself surrounded by B4 and B5....no chance to get a shot up...10 seconds left. A2 tries to pass the ball back out to A3 but the ball sails way over A3's head into the backcourt where A3 retrieves the ball. The only players the ball ever had a chance of touching were A1, B4 and B5....all deep in you primary.

What would you do if A1 threw the ball such that it (A) was tipped by B4 or B5 and your partner(s) call a backcourt violation or (B) was clearly not tipped by either B4 or B5 and your partner(s)did not call a backcourt violation?

Your decision to act or not act has a good chance to change who wins the game.

Yesterday, I am officiating a boys' JrHS game at a local colleges boys' JrHS and HS team camp. I am the T as A1 is dribbling the ball in A's BC. A1 stops his dribble just short of the Division Line. When A1 stopped his dribble, both of his feet were in contact with the court. A1 then proceeded to step with his right foot into A's FC and then brought his right foot back into his team's BC. My partner, from his position on A's FC endline, sounds his whistle for a BC violation by A1, :eek:. I took the call away from my partner and gave the ball to A for a throw-in nearest the spot of the "BC" violation. Team B's HC didn't complain and even told me that he know it wasn't a BC violation.

MTD, Sr.

I hope you made the preacher buy you dinner after that one. Or was it Jr? :D

Clarification Please ???
 

Just want to double check something. The key to this call is that A1, holding (not dribbling) the ball, had his pivot foot in the backcourt the entire time. Only the nonpivot foot went from frontcourt to backcourt? No violation. Right?

Billy, read what you quoted from Mark. Which part is confusing? If A1 were holding the ball and moved his pivot foot into the FC woudn't that be a travel?

Neither of them was my partner in this game. If it was Junior, I would have made him walk home. LOL

MTD, Sr.

BadNewsRef:

Go easy on Billy, the Red Sox can't seem to get away for those pesky New York Yankees and that is causing him to have trouble concentrating on basketball. :D

MTD, Sr.

Clarification, Mark. How did you take it away? Did you immediately reverse it, or did you speak with your partner first?

When I get that guy, I like to step in between the two players & wave to him as he ball watches.


NOTE: I'm still interested in hearing Nevada's thoughts on helping a partner to achieve the ultimate goal (getting plays right) on the new scenarios!!

IMO, Snaqs, APG, Camron & MTD, Sr have all provided great examples of "when" to assist, although I dont agree with "how" MTD did it.

I took it away immediately; Team A's HC was pretty suprised at my partner's call and he never left his spot on the endline. I think he know he had screwed the pooch (as they say on the Baseball Forum) and was glad that my actions kept A's Head Coach off his back.

MTD, Sr.

That's what I thought. I have to admit, I cringed when I saw this, because I had a bad experience on the receiving end.

A number of years back, MS girls. Opening tip off, A-1 tips to A-2, who catches the ball with feet in the frontcourt. She pivots into the backcourt, an easy backcourt violation. My much older partner, without consulting me, immediately says I'm wrong, and gives the ball back to A at the division line. I'm too stunned to react. (Admittedly, that's on me.)

If I see something vastly different from my partner, I have no problem hustling to him and communicating it, and I expect the same from my partner. Whether my partner takes my advice is his decision, but I will never show up my partner by overriding him publicly.

I'm assuming you're T & he's L?

A1 dribbles from the Ts area & spins away from the T in the lane. As the play opens up to the slot, the ball is capped before he travels. Double whistle the T begins to form the travel signal but you know all he had was back & butts.
How would you handle it??

Yes, the tip-off is complete, and I'm the R.

Same answer applies. If I see something vastly different from my partner, I communicate it to him. We may discuss the sequence of events, but ultimately, it's his call to reverse.

Oh my, right out the gate huh :eek:

I had that situation in camp & I let it ride from slot as the T wasn't cognizant of my whistle & had already signalled travel without any pushback.

I was told to come over the top of his whistle when he begins to form the travel signal.
*tweet-tweet tweet-tweet* and say "I have a held ball before the play opened up to my partner" while purposefully walking towards the play & partner.

He followed up by saying this particular sitch should not be viewed as showing up your partner. You're helping him & he really shouldnt be putting whistles on plays that spin away from him anyway.
They said we tend to run & whisper too much! Sometimes the situation only needs extra *tweets* & a verbal description of the sequence of events... get on to the next play.

This is not to be confused with offering info when you DON'T have a whistle on it.

Snaqs (and camron Rust), in all fairness to Nevada, you are changing the situation drastically here. He said he would not insert himself into a rules misapplication situation. This is not a misapplication of the rule - it's simply a partner who didn't see the ball tipped by the defender. Those are two very different things.

If it were me - I would go quickly and calmly to my partner with information, on both of your situations. I would not try to argue with him/her, simply ask if they saw the tip or if there should be a backcourt violation on a throw-in. And then away we go with whatever he/she decides to do with the info.

No, he said this...

He clearly said he would not go to his partner at all unless the partner asked for help...whether it was a rules situation or otherwise.

Plus, in my case, you really don't know if it is a rules misapplication or incorrect judgement. It is not the same as the ball being OOB and getting the direction wrong. Being OOB is illegal every time...but going into the backcourt is illegal only sometimes.

And that is how it should be done.

Anyone who receives an assignment at that level has earned it from someone who put him there. It's certainly not my place to attempt to call the game for him. If you don't have enough respect for a partner on a State game then you have big problems.
In my area state games are mixed crews and so frequently are people with whom I have never worked. I would most definitely NOT go to a partner about a call. If the partner wants some help and comes to me to ask, then I'll provide the info.

An intelligent official as the Trail would look back to the Lead for a visual indication of tip by the defense or not before blowing the whistle. As T that is what I would do. As Lead I would give a hand signal to my partner.
If my partner wants to make a call on a play which is not in his primary without any help, then he gets to explain it afterwards.

For those of you who are going to partners with information and attempting to get calls changed or simply changing them yourselves do you also do this when your partner calls a foul which you believe is incorrect?

For example, you have a block/charge play in the lane as Lead which you think is a block, but the Trail comes running in and signals a charge before you can do anything.

Let's make it during a State championship game with five seconds left and the score is tied. ;)

OK, I may be one of those partners in that mixed crew. If you came to me and told me, "Tom, blue (the defense) tipped that ball" I would immediately put my whistle in my mouth, tweet and give the offense back the ball. Putting the ball back into play so coaches coach, players play and fans...do whatever they do.

You are also correct, I would make the call and look at you immediately. That look would say, "come help me if I'm wrong on this." I think an error of omission here is wrong and we cannot easily stop play to call the violation.

That is why this game is so hard to officiate. In one situation something can be done (IMO), while in your situation that is pretty much a wrap for it.

Location, Location, Location ...
 

Nothing is confusing. I'm just trying to clarify the situation, especially for Forum rookies.

4.4.1 SITUATION: As Team A is advancing the ball from its backcourt toward
its frontcourt, A1 passes the ball to A2. A2 catches the ball while both feet are on
the floor – with one foot on either side of the division line. In this situation, either
foot may be the pivot foot. (a) A2 lifts the foot which is in the backcourt and then
puts it back on the floor in the backcourt; or (b) A2 lifts the foot which is in the
frontcourt, pivots and puts it on the floor in the backcourt. RULING: In (a), it is a
backcourt violation. When A2, while holding the ball, lifts the foot which was in
the backcourt, the ball is now in the frontcourt. When A2’s foot then touches in
the backcourt, it is a violation. In (b), when A2 lifts the foot which is in the frontcourt
and places it down in the backcourt, the location of the ball has not
changed. The ball is still in the backcourt and no violation has occurred. (4-35-2)

On a related note: I tried to find the rule about a dribbler needing to have both feet and the ball in the frontcourt to gain frontcourt status, and I can't find the rule, or a caseplay. Could someone please point me in the right direction?

Knowing you, I'm sure that you would cover the type of plays on which you desire such help in the pregame. Yet I've been on several crews where it isn't brought up and I can tell that it isn't desired.

The only difference in our methods is that I would look and ask before blowing the whistle. I don't wish to stop the game without there being a violation.

OK, so tell me what you would be looking for me to do if I was the L. I would be looking right at you waiting for you to blow the whistle and I don't have a clue as to what I could do to help you until you blow the whistle.

Are you looking for me to give you come kind of tip signal? Shake my head?

Right, we can't officiate for other people.

IMO people seem too eager to change the decisions of their partners.
What happened to trusting your partner? What about killing his credibility or confidence?

Each of us has different training and different judgment. We aren't always going to agree. That is why we switch positions on fouls during the game.

I've learned to live with what my partners call. If they ask, I'll share my thoughts. Otherwise, I'm going to just let it go.

I just don't get your line of thinking Nevada...IMO, you hold pertinent information back that may lead to a changed call, then not only do you make me look, bad, but you make the whole crew look bad for not correcting something obvious. You ask if people would use this on fouls...no because that's the cut off point because those kind of plays involve a lot of judgement.

Out of bounds call...we can give a concrete fact that a player hit the ball that he may not have seen...backcourt calls a missed deflection or just a plain misapplication of a rule. This is something that is easily brought up in a pre-game and if, as you say, someone doesn't bring up the scenario, then I'd bring it up myself.

I'd look back and give you this http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/whaat.gif
and holler, "Tom, was there a tip?"

I would assume that you would either shake your head "no" or give me some kind of tip signal with your hands. I'd even be okay with you blowing the whistle at that point if there wasn't a defensive tip from in front of you.

Hmmm...upon reading his comments after this post by you, I have to agree that you read his earlier posts better than I did.

I honestly have no idea where he is coming from on this...

99% certain it in the definitions section under "Ball Location" (or maybe "Location, Ball")

I agree that on this (BC violation) play, L can give a "tip" signal, if there was one -- this is when it should be used. If there's no signal, then blow the whistle. If L then comes out and says it was tipped, change the call (unless T has a later touch by B, or some other reason to keep the call).

This has nothing to do with lack of respect for a partner! Quite frankly, I respect the GAME first & foremost. So if his wittle feelings get hurt because he saw something incorrect & I brought info to him then that is his problem. Sh!t, he should be buying me a beer after the game... I would.

We have mixed crews here too, which really means an official that sees a steady diet of 1A ball can now see 3A-5A squads all of a sudden. ~ Hmmmmm ~
9 out of 10 times its unrealistic to expect said official to be able to adjust to the speed & skill level on the biggest stage... but thats how they do it :rolleyes:

This thread shows how differently things are done across the country.
"Let him live & die with it vs. Get the play it right"

I'm sure if we took it to the polls the latter would win!

Say it aint so Nevada! You dont really use the "Idunno" do you?

I pregame "help".

I let my partners know that at least once a game I usually ask for help on a OOB play from the lead and that I do so verbally.

I let them know I'm not coming in to provide information on a bang-bang OOB play that occurs in their primary even if they get it wrong but I will most definitely be bringing information if the tip occurred in my PCA before going out on their line.

4-4-6 ... During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

Play I had this last season....big game, big rivals, full gym.....

I'm lead with post players doing what they do. A bullet pass comes in from outside. Both players reach for the ball, neither get it.....it was at least 1 foot beyond either player's hands....not even close. I call B's ball. My partner comes to me...one I trust very much....and asks me if I want some help. I KNOW he would only come in if he had something important. I welcome the input. The defender on the passer brushed the ball as it was released...not enough to slow the ball down or deflect it more than a few inches but a touch nonetheless. I blow my whistle and announce A's ball.

Don't know if it changed the game but it made us a lot more credible as a crew.

If you were with Nevada you would've had to ask to get that play right.

The fact that the partner came to Camron with information unsolicited probably means his partner didn't have enough respect for him and probably has big problems. Camron's credibility was lost for the rest of the game....


According to Nevada of course.

Three Point Stance ...
 

Thanks guys.

Get It Right ...
 

That's exactly the way we're taught to do things here in my little corner of Connecticut, and it's part of almost everyone's pregame. In thirty years, working almost eight hundred high school assignments, I've only had one partner, just a single one, in thirty years, not appreciate my help. And I'm talking about offering help here, not changing someone's call.

For every example such as Camron's there is the counter situation in which a partner who came to "help" actually made the error.

My guess is that in the long run officials are better served by staying out of it and trusting their partners to make quality decisions.

If a partner sees a play one way, but I see it another who is to say that I am right? I'm not going to assume that my judgment is superior. Quite possibly a play which looks a certain way from my angle looks completely different from where my partner is. I would rather trust that he had a good look, and if he didn't that he will ask for help. I've seen two videos showing how it can look as if a player touched a ball from one angle, but when another view is shown it is clear that there was no contact.

I've now worked half a dozen state championship games and probably twice that many state semi-finals. I've found myself on the court with people who used to work in the PAC-10, Big West, and even one who has done a couple of Super Bowls. I'm not going to go running across the court to those guys thinking that they need me to come to their rescue. I have more respect for and confidence in these people than that. They didn't get to where they are/were by not being able to handle plays.

That said, the philosophy that I've expressed in this thread is the opinion that I've formed over 15 years on the court. This is what I have come to believe. My opinon has certainly changed over time. It may change again, but for now this is what I'm doing and it is working for me.

Which is why you don't change the call but communicate that you have info if your partner wants it. They still get to make the final decision.

Absolutely! Maybe Nevadas partners would still be working major DIs if their partners assisted :D NO, I'm just kidding!

We all do what works best for us, individually. If it ain't broke...

I'll make one additional comment for my thinking in this.
Several of the more veteran officials out here still use the "save a foul" concept when making OOB calls. That means that they will see contact and instead of penalizing it when the person with the ball or who would have gained possession of the ball loses/last touches the ball which goes OOB, these folks simply award the throw-in to that player's team.

I don't agree with this idea, but I'm not going to go to those people and inform them that I clearly saw W11 touch the ball last only to be told, "Yeah, I know. I saved B32 a foul." This happens fairly frequently in this area when working with some of the long-time vets.

I strongly believe that it is not our job to "save" players fouls. We should be judging the contact as illegal and penalizing it or deeming it incidental and properly awarding possession on the OOB to the team which didn't last touch the ball.

I don't think we're talking about going in with info on those types of plays....but more likely the ones where all of the information needed to make the right call may take knowledge of things outside the calling official's primary or from angles the calling official simply could not see.

On the "Save-a-foul" kinds of plays, I make eye contact with my partner if I see something but think that is what they're doing. They nod back and we move on....all without going in.

Which is addressed, as I said in my last post, by not giving help on plays that occur in that official's PCA. But if a shot or pass is tipped coming from your PCA you are just going to turn a blinded eye if your partner gives the ball to the wrong team? That has nothing to do with saving a foul.

I want to thank all who commented on this post. I never thought it would gather this many responses. I will say that after reading all of your thoughts and comments it is clear that I need to be discussing more in the pre-game conference. Typically my partner is more senior than I and they are conducting the conference but for this league I am working with all 1st and 2nd yr refs. So my 5 yrs is now the Sr.

One last question: I am going to be working with this ref over the next 6-8 weeks in this league, a rotation of 4 refs, do I show him the rule book for this situation? He is a 2nd yr ref.

Exactly what happened on the court?
What was the play?
What discussion, if any, happened after he made the call?
Was it a rule error or a difference in judgment? IOW, did he simply see it differently, or did he see the same thing and misapply the rule?
Was there post-game discussion?

The first post of this thread. My partner called a BC violation because a-2, received a throw-in and tipped the ball into the BC and was the 1st to retrieve in the BC. I saw the whole play as I was chopping in the clock and knew there was no violation. I called him over for a conference and he saw exactly what I saw but was adamant that by rule this was a BC violation. He didn't change his call and we proceeded with the game.
I do not have the rules book in front of me now but when I read the Case # it read identical to our situation. So my question is do I bring this up this week when I see him?

I would.

"Hey, you got me into the rule book after that last game, thanks. Look what I found in the case book."

You'll find out real fast how receptive he is to actually learning the rules.