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-   -   Is this a Backcourt Violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/73011-backcourt-violation.html)

Brick43 Tue Jun 21, 2011 08:19am

Is this a Backcourt Violation?
 
A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball. Is this BC?
I have read and reread 9.9.3 and am still unclear. Is this considered to be part of the "Throw-in exception"?

tref Tue Jun 21, 2011 08:31am

Depends... where did the throw-in originate?

Raymond Tue Jun 21, 2011 08:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 767394)
Depends... where did the throw-in originate?

Where the throw-in originates doesn't matter. The ball has neither FC or BC status during the throw-in.

tref Tue Jun 21, 2011 09:06am

After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 21, 2011 09:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brick43 (Post 767387)
A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball. Is this BC?
I have read and reread 9.9.3 and am still unclear. Is this considered to be part of the "Throw-in exception"?

Four things required for a BC violation:
1) TC
2) Ball in FC
3) A last to touch before ball goes to BC
4) A first to touch after ball goes to BC

Did we have all of those under THE CURRENT rules?

How about under the NEW rules?

Do we need an "exception?"

Raymond Tue Jun 21, 2011 09:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 767410)
After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.

Still doesn't matter where the throw-in originated. If you deemed the A2's controlled tip as player control/possession would it matter if the throw-in originated in the FC?

tref Tue Jun 21, 2011 09:16am

Right, right.

cmathews Tue Jun 21, 2011 09:53am

why are we worried
 
Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. I believe in the OP we have a violation under the new rules, unless there is an exception granted, and I HOPE there is.

Adam Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 767410)
After a made basket, A-1 inbounds the ball to A-2 who is heavily contested by B-2 near the division line. A-2, in the FC, tips the ball away from the coverage and the ball goes into the BC. A-2 is the first to grab the ball.

Is that a controlled tip by A2? Or can no tip be ruled possesion like a tapped rebound that goes into the b/c?

I cannot think of a time where I've seen a b/c endline throw-in go into the f/c & tipped into the b/c by the offense.

PC requires holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. It's either a tap, or he held it (even briefly), we have to decide which in these cases.

Rule of thumb; with .2 seconds left would you have allowed such a tap to score? If so, no control.

Raymond Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmathews (Post 767422)
Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. ...

Can a player catch the ball in the front court and throw it into the backcourt?

tref is questioning whether A2 had possession and threw the ball into the backcourt based upon the OP's wording.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmathews (Post 767422)
Why do we care about player possesion on this play? It has no bearing on the FC status of the ball. I believe in the OP we have a violation under the new rules, unless there is an exception granted, and I HOPE there is.

The OP didn't specify new rules or old rules, and the questions were to help him reason through the question to be able to correctly rule on other simialr situations.

SmokeEater Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:29am

IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.

Adam Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 767432)
IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.

The problem is, all we know are the old rules. We have no idea whether the proper exceptions will be written, or if they'll be written into the case plays, or if a tip in the FC that ends the throw-in will also constitute FC TC for the throw-in team for the purposes of BC violations.

bob jenkins Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeEater (Post 767432)
IMO posting what is to be done under "old" rules may lead to confusion. IF there are "new" rules in place then we officiate to the rules being administered.

I know that what is happening here is the old is being used as a comparison for the new.

What snaqwells said, plus many summer games are played under "last year's rules" -- similar questions come up almost every year.

Scrapper1 Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 767410)

Is that a controlled tip by A2?

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm picking nits, or if I'm repeating myself, BUT. . .

There is no such thing as a controlled tip or tap, by rule. A "controlled tip" has no bearing on any play in determining control. Player control is established by HOLDING or DRIBBLING a LIVE ball INBOUNDS. That's it. That's the only way. So a tip or tap, even if intentionally directed, does not establish control. Ever. If you rule that A2 caught the ball before directing into the backcourt, then that's a different story and there is player control.

If the new rule is written to match the NCAA rule, with the same exceptions, then the play in the original post is legal. If they simply add "and during a throw-in" to the definition of team control, then the play in question is a violation.

Mark Padgett Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 767444)
There is no such thing as a controlled tip or tap, by rule. A "controlled tip" has no bearing on any play in determining control. Player control is established by HOLDING or DRIBBLING a LIVE ball INBOUNDS. That's it. That's the only way. So a tip or tap, even if intentionally directed, does not establish control. Ever.

Scrapper1, there are some guys who think "controlled" tap means the ball actually comes to rest for a split second in the hand, therefore qualifying as being "held".

Scrapper1 Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett (Post 767446)
Scrapper1, there are some guys who think "controlled" tap means the ball actually comes to rest for a split second in the hand, therefore qualifying as being "held".

They may think that, but they'd be wrong. The ball can be tapped (which is the same as being batted) or it can be held. But it can't be both at the same time.

There is, by rule, no such thing as a controlled tap. Get it out of the vocabulary.

Adam Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrapper1 (Post 767461)
they may think that, but they'd be wrong. The ball can be tapped (which is the same as being batted) or it can be held. But it can't be both at the same time.

There is, by rule, no such thing as a controlled tap. Get it out of the vocabulary.

+1

Brick43 Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 767405)
Where the throw-in originates doesn't matter. The ball has neither FC or BC status during the throw-in.

The ball was side out near division line but like stated here that doesn't matter.

Brick43 Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:39am

You inserted after a made basket but I did not state that. The ball was side out in the FC. How this played out was that the trail official made a back court call. Although I should have been focused more in the FC it was one of those plays where I bounced the ball to the inbounder and was chopping in the clock. Therefore I saw the play unfold. I quickly called for a conference, in my mind to overturn this BC call. However my partner determined the tip was intentional and therefore established possession and control. Like someone else in this thread stated he was of the mind set that this type of tip somehow established control? I tried to explain that a tip is not control and that he was incorrect in that thinking. He then replied that even so he can't then be the 1st person to touch it in the BC. He was so persistent that he made the right call that I questioned the latter point(1st to touch after tip) and for nothing other than moving the game along agreed. So was this BC?

Adam Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brick43 (Post 767782)
You inserted after a made basket but I did not state that. The ball was side out in the FC. How this played out was that the trail official made a back court call. Although I should have been focused more in the FC it was one of those plays where I bounced the ball to the inbounder and was chopping in the clock. Therefore I saw the play unfold. I quickly called for a conference, in my mind to overturn this BC call. However my partner determined the tip was intentional and therefore established possession and control. Like someone else in this thread stated he was of the mind set that this type of tip somehow established control? I tried to explain that a tip is not control and that he was incorrect in that thinking. He then replied that even so he can't then be the 1st person to touch it in the BC. He was so persistent that he made the right call that I questioned the latter point(1st to touch after tip) and for nothing other than moving the game along agreed. So was this BC?

Only if the player held or dribbled it in the FC prior to it going into the BC. It was either a tip, a dribble, or a hold. The way you describe it, it was a tip and thus the wrong call.

Early on, I was known to talk a partner into a wrong call occasionally.


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