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Thu Jan 30, 2003, 06:26pm
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Big game this weekend. We are meeting the only other undefeated team in our division, and it is our only meeting in the regular season. We are down 3 and stupidly fail to foul until 8 seconds left. Player makes both FTs, we go length of court with 2 quick passes and take a three with a couple of seconds left, whistle is blown for foul on shooter. Shooting 3 FTs with .8 seconds left.
We make one of first two FTs to cut lead to 4. We call TO to organize ourselves, and I verify with both refs that we can catch and shoot. We have to hope for a made FT and a steal in 3 point area and instant shot. Not likely, but it is our only decent plan at this point. We miss the last FT. On the last shot, the ball bounces, coach of other team told his players not to try for rebound, it goes outside 3 point line where we catch and shoot and get run into by a defender. But time expires before ball is touched by any player. Evidently, coach of B was talking to the timer and told his players not to touch the ball because it would be live off the rim and clock would start?! When we protested, timer says "ball is live off the rim." True statement, but it does not follow that the clock starts on live ball - only when touched by a player. Timer and both refs disagree with me. Then I show them the rule, they agree, but ref says we couldn't catch and shoot with .8 on the clock, because it can only be a "tip, tap, or try." Never mind that she used langauge that includes try, which is a throw, which includes catching, etc. She also has this case wrong, because the tip or tap (ot try) provision is only with .3 seconds or less. And it went against what both refs agreed the ruling would be when we discussed it during the timeout. To top it off, timer says doesn't matter, there's no such thing as a 4 point play - which there isn't if you blow the whistle before my 3 point shooter gets fouled! Would (and should) we have won? No, we blew it well before the .8 second mark. So I am not here to blame our loss on lack of rules knowledge - it was most clearly a poor coaching job for about 24 minutes that really cost us dearly. however. . . Know your timing rules in end of game situations, and make sure your timers know them, especially when you have a TO during which to talk it over and get it right. If a team does what it needs to in those closing seconds, it deserves to have the timing handled correctly. 
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Thu Jan 30, 2003, 06:37pm
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Coach,this is a situation where a complaint to whoever is supplying your officials is justified.I am sure that any assigner/supervisor would want to know when things like this occur,so that they can try to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again.
When to start the clock on a FT is a basic fundamental for any official.
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Thu Jan 30, 2003, 06:50pm
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I tend toward a very conservative method on most of these situations - I praise the refs when they do well and I lose, complain to the league if they are bad and I win.
I just hate to sound to the league like I am only whining about not getting a call. That is almost invariably when coaches call with gripes about refs. I would be interested if others share your view, and maybe i will give a call. I would not normally.
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Thu Jan 30, 2003, 07:11pm
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Coach,I'm the assigner for our Association.I also get all complaints forwarded to me,mainly because I'm retired and I'm usually available during basketball season.Most official's groups have the same mindset as ours does.We do not want our officials screwing up! Errors in judgement can happen to any official.Screwing up basic rules isn't supposed to happen.If it does,then it's our fault and we have to correct it.We can't correct it if we don't know about it.We are all basically service organizations,and we are supposed to provide proper service for our fees. JMHO.
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Fri Jan 31, 2003, 12:22am
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I would definately report this to the assignor/commissioner. Probably could just cut and paste what you have here. It could go a long way to helping other teams in the future (possibly your own). If it's not reported, it may go uncorrected (and we could see these guys doing the same thing in a D-I game some day
 ).Also, make sure you include the part about the timer and B's coach influencing him.
__________________
"To win the game is great. To play the game is greater. But to love the game is the greatest of all."
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Fri Jan 31, 2003, 08:29am
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Did you make the three? If so, and you made the free throw, you should have gone into OT. I agree. I would ask the assignor the question on the ruling instead of telling them how the officials cost you in the last .8 seconds.
__________________
~Hodges My two sense! 
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Fri Jan 31, 2003, 08:58am
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B's coach did not influence the timer - the timer gave bad information based on his flawed understanding. I know B's coach, and he doesn't know live ball from dead ball.
We did not make the three, but we also did not really take it in the same way bcause the player heard the whistle and half heartedly threw it at the basket because she knew the game was over. But to be clear, I don't think there's a snowball's chance that we win this game - and if you watched it, you would agree. We all had an awful, no good, very bad day, starting with yours truly.
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Fri Jan 31, 2003, 12:30pm
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Quote:
We refs do not allow each other to beat ourselves up, and while most coaches ought to be less self-aggrandizing, you are not in that category. You are definitely what used to be a Mensch. Your players are darn lucky to have you in their lives, and don't ever forget it. One loss, even one big loss, doesn't change that. The point to youth sports is the life lessons learned and your players will learn the most valuable lesson ever if they see you grow and improve from your mistakes. I just wish my daughter had had you when she was playing!
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Sat Feb 01, 2003, 07:16pm
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My two cents.
If you report this it I thin you need to state that you lost and would not have won anyway, but that you are concerned about basic rule knowledge. Be specific and detailed. If two refs let time expire before ball is touched they messed up. I think the association would want to know that. As long as it is professional and doesnt sound like whining or sour grapes the association will look at it...
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Sun Feb 02, 2003, 10:04pm
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Hawk's Coach: I agree that you should report this. If I recall, you are in MD and it was probably not my my association (as we have discussed before), but I can assure you that if it was, the assignor would definitely want to know about this. It appears from your post that "both" (can't seem to get the bold to work) officials and the timer screwed up.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot. He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
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Mon Feb 03, 2003, 12:55am
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Good advise from all...here are a couple other observations...
Quote:
Quote:
BTW, if she missed the 3pt attempt, and was fouled by 2 opponents at the same time...she now gets 4 FTs. There is another possible 4pt play. So there ya go...take the ammo supplied to you and make your report. Dude
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Mon Feb 03, 2003, 01:33am
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Coach, the fact that you did not go ballistic on the timer and the two officials simply proves once again that you are one classy person! Report it...as a former board member of our association, these are the perfect things to bring up at Assoc. meetings as teaching tools, so that it doesn't happen again...
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