5 seconds after a shot

[Adam]

When is the proper time to begin the 5 second count after a basket. Had a sich the other night where B team scores and gets into a press. A-1 is right there at the hoop after the score, but gets onto the court and waits for A-4 to come from the frontcourt to take the ball. Trail official starts count about the time A-4 is getting to the 3-pt line, probably due to the fact that there were 3 players from A team standing around waiting for the 4th guy to run a long distance.
A's coach starts asking me why he started the count when his guy was on the other side of the court. The got the ball in in time, so there was no call and no necessary explanation. But it got me to thinking. My undertanding is to start the count when the players are available and the ball is at their disposal. But how is that practiced by most refs?

snaqs

[Hawks Coach]

I think a little leeway is in order, but you have to see it to call it. If they want to get the right player to the ball, I think they should have a moment to do that. But game situation needs to come into play. This sounds like a soccer-style clock management technique could be at work here. Soccer always has a running clock during "dead balls," and teams switch inbounders (also legal) when holding a one goal lead with time running down to gain a few seconds here and there.

In this case, imagine B down a few points and pressing to get a couple of quick scores with the time running down, and A waiting to locate the right inbounder while the clock runs a few precious seconds away. I wouldn't give A much time to stand and stare at the ball, because it is taking an unfair advantage of the clock. In the first quarter, with A organizing themselves to break the press, the situation is entirely different and the magnitude of the time loss significantly less. I would give them a little more time. But you also just have to have a feel where enough is enough, and start counting it.

[MN 3 Sport Ref]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I think a little leeway is in order, but you have to see it to call it. If they want to get the right player to the ball, I think they should have a moment to do that. But game situation needs to come into play. This sounds like a soccer-style clock management technique could be at work here. Soccer always has a running clock during "dead balls," and teams switch inbounders (also legal) when holding a one goal lead with time running down to gain a few seconds here and there.

In this case, imagine B down a few points and pressing to get a couple of quick scores with the time running down, and A waiting to locate the right inbounder while the clock runs a few precious seconds away. I wouldn't give A much time to stand and stare at the ball, because it is taking an unfair advantage of the clock. In the first quarter, with A organizing themselves to break the press, the situation is entirely different and the magnitude of the time loss significantly less. I would give them a little more time. But you also just have to have a feel where enough is enough, and start counting it.

I agree Hawks, it depends on the situation. In a normal situation I will give them a second or two for the "right" inbounder to get to the ball. However in a pressure situation the inbounder better know who he is (that is why the call ya'll coaches) if there are players there that can inbound the ball and it is available to them I am starting my count. This is a huge disadvantage to the team that is behind allowing the leading team to run extra time off the clock. FED 7.6.1 backs this up saying the count shall start when the ball is at the disposal of ANY player entitled to that throwin.

[Adam]

Thanks for the response. I would have done the same thing my partner did. The team that scored was trailing by about 7 or 8 with less than two minutes left, so the inbounding team was getting an unfair few seconds. Good thing the kid got the ball in. (^:

snaqs

[whistleblower]

The procedure is this: Once you get the feel that A is delaying, the lead (new trail) retrieves the ball, places it on the endline, and starts the 5 second count.

[Hawks Coach]

whistleblower
Is this procedure documented somewhere, did you get this from a camp, etc? I have never seen it done that way, and it would seem to add several seconds to an end of game clock rundown situation.

[whistleblower]

Got it from a senior official on Long Island about 10 years ago. Everybody sees you do it, too, and they instantly know that you have started the count. Only takes a second or two to retrieve and place the ball, and then there's no argument with the coach about when you started your count.

[whistleblower]

See NFHS Casebook 4.43.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by whistleblower
See NFHS Casebook 4.43.

Do you mean 4.41.3(c)? CB4.43 isn't applicable.