What's the correct ruling here?

After a made basket, the nonscoring team (A) runs a double-inbounder play to break the press. A1 takes the ball out of the net and stands OOB behind the baseline. As the five-second count begins, A2 is in-bounds. A2 then dashes across the baseline out of bounds, and sets both feet OOB before A1's pass gets to him. A2 then inbounds the ball (running the baseline first if necessary).

Legal?

NCAA Rule 7, Section 5, Article 7A says "Any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw-in or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate behind the end line."

Are the last words of that rule normally interpreted as:
(a) "to a teammate who is behind the end line as he receives the ball" or (b) "to a teammate who is behind the end line when the play (that is, the 5-second count)begins"?

Any different result under NFHS rules?

There is no timing requirement for teammate to go OOB or to be OOB.

Speaking for Fed rules only, the play you described is perfectly legal. After a made basket, all five players could be out of bounds could be out of bounds as long as the ball is released on the throw-in within five seconds.

I suspect that this is true for college hoops as well.

Thanks -- you folks are
 

quick and authoritative. Follow up question purely from curiosity: At what point is A2 OOB for purposes of the play? Both feet touching down OOB? One foot touching down OOB? A2's feet are irrelevant so long as the ball stays behind the baseline?

A-2's feet are relevant and only one part of one foot needs to be out of bounds for a-2 to be out of bounds.

Also remember that ANY part of the boundary line is out of bounds.

additional clarification
 

IF A2 catches the ball as s/he is heading OOB a throw-in violation occurs if:
a.) the foot is located on (straddling in and out of bounds, or
b.) A2 has not, prior to the catch, established OOB status (catches ball while airborne jumping from the playing court).

Also note:
A2's foot (feet) must be completely OOB and remain there until A2 releases the ball onto the court, or passes to another legally OOB teammate. Contact with OOB line is legal, contact with the court prior to release is a violation. As indicated earlier, the ball must be released onto the court within the 5 seconds; regardless of all OOB ballhandling.

[Edited by williebfree on Jan 30th, 2003 at 03:57 PM]

Re: additional clarification
 

Willie: Great concise clarification. Maybe you should write for the FED :D

One more tangent. We have established that legally OOB teammate1 may pass to legally OOB teammate2 when there are no spot restrictions. The question is can this pass be a bounce pass?? (touching and remaining OOB) Does defender 1 have the right to intercept this pass (while remaining IB) regardless if it is a bounce pass or not???

Obviously a bounce pass touching IB then caught by OOB teammate is OOB.

I don't remember a rule against a bounce pass in this situation. No, the defender cannot intercept this pass (unless he can do so without breaking the out of bounds plane, but I doubt that's possible...)

Huh?
 

klancie,
Given your assumption, (...or is it a rule or case?) how can I as an official, or how can a defender, tell that the released pass was headed to a teammate out-of-bounds instead of another teammate inbounds?
Are you certain about this?
mick

Re: Re: additional clarification
 

I have to say no since it is a delay of game warning if the D breaks the OOB plane and a T if they touch the ball. I don't see how it would be much different here. Now if they intercept the pass I will say they broke the plane first and just give a DOG warning.

Re: Re: Re: additional clarification
 

dhodges007,
What about 8-6-3: "...until the ball has been released."
mick

Re: Re: Re: Re: additional clarification
 

First, I think it's 7-6-3. And second, you're not playing fair, Mick. It's "until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass." Passing to teammate who is also OOB is not a throw-in pass.

Chuck

Thanks .YU.P.
 

Chuck,
It is 7-6-3.
How do I know, ...how does the defender know the released ball is not an inbounds pass.
Should be easy for me to judge, but the defender may have been facing an entirely different direction. Can we really penalize the defender?
(<I>...as if I've ever seen or ever will see this play</I>)

mick

Re: Thanks .YU.P.
 

Mick-

I think this one is easy: yes, we penalize the defense because the rules say we penalize the defense. How does the defender know it's not going in, by paying attention to the direction the ball is going. And I think the reasoning that you can call the delay instead of the T because he had to break the plane first is horse----; the intent of therule is pretty clear that it is a delay warning for breaking the plane without touching the ball -- any other reading makes the T an impossible option that has no purpose in the rule book.

(I frankly think this is an underutilized tool for breaking a press -- were I coaching against a team with an intense press, I'd put in a play to use the pass and a screen against the man covering the ball on the press. Run that play a couple of times, and then have a similar play where the second man stays in bounds to get the pass when the defender is expecting him to go OOB.)

Re: Thanks .YU.P.
 

mick,

If you are working my game tonight (I know, that'd be quite the road trip) you'll see it. We have two standard press offenses, and one more we call "SPECIAL" which is exactly this. We use it against a 1-2-1-1 press which our opponents tonight run often. Since they have a long-armed 5'11 girl that they put up front on the inbounder, it's good to get the inbound pass away from her deflections.

Re: Re: Thanks .YU.P.
 

Yeah, it'd be fun to work in the sunny south.
I've seen the offensive pass OOB, Coach. I do not think I'll see the defender's play, however. :)

Mick
U.P. where you live the players are smart enough not to reach through the out of bounds plane and touch the ball in this situation. I had this exact play in a game last year. After a made basket and a time-out the coach asked me if they could run the endline. They set up a play to pass it along the endline and have a player go deep. One of the defenders tried to intercept the endline pass out of bounds knocking the ball into the wall. Of course it was the first game of the season and it took a minute to get the call right. As far as the player not knowing weather or not the ball is released for throw-in or not isn't our problem. If they are passing it along the baseline after a made basket and they touch the ball, it is a T. If they miss the ball it is a warning.

Re: Re: Thanks .YU.P.
 

Thanks hawkk,
That works.
mick

Unless it's released?

Re: Huh?
 

If A2 is standing OB and A1, throwing it in, sends a bounce pass in that direction, I'm probably going to assume that they're running a set play and the ball is not headed IB.

Am I certain about this? No more certain than I can be about anything else the 8th grade girls that I generally referee are trying to do... :-)

If the defense reaches through the OOB plane and touches the ball it's a T in this case, even if released.

My personal belief is that it's a T in any case, but that is still up for debate.

Chuck

Man, we'll hafta remember to pregame that. ;)

To get really 3rd world on this play: suppose A1 passes to A2 who is stnding OOB at the corner of the court. Can A2 then pass to A3 standing OOB at midcourt (assuming they don't violate the 5 second rule)?

SamC

No, they can't legally do that, Sam.
Then they will have violated the endline plane and failed to throw the ball directly toward the court. ;)