Double Violation

Gre144 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 12:23am

I only do middle school basketball so I don't know the rules to well but here is the situation. Shooter has two shots at the foul line. A double violation occurs at the time she shoots the basket ball.(An offensive and defensive player changes lanes at the same time after I have given the shooter the ball) The shooter makes the basket. Does the point count or is it nullified?

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 01:17am

By rule, it doesn't count.

However, at the middle school level, I would count the basket, tell the players to remain set after the shooter gets the ball, and play on.

WindyCityRef · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 01:20am

No points are awarded and if no other freethrows are to be shot (you didn't mention if the violation occured during the first or second try), the team who has the arrow receives the ball OOB nearest to the violation.

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 28, 2003, 09:47am

If the two players truly moved at exactly the same time, then it's a double violation and you handle it just as everybody said. But I'd be willing to bet that one kid stepped out first and told the other kid to move. In that case, you only penalize the first kid's action.

Chuck

Gre144 · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 12:08am

Does she shoot the first free throw again or do you just nullify the shot and allow her to shoot the second free throw if a double violation occurs?

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 05:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gre144
Does she shoot the first free throw again or do you just nullify the shot and allow her to shoot the second free throw if a double violation occurs?

You nullify the shot and allow her to shoot the second FT.If there is no second(or third) FT to follow,you go to the arrow.

RookieDude · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 05:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
If the two players truly moved at exactly the same time, then it's a double violation and you handle it just as everybody said. But I'd be willing to bet that one kid stepped out first and told the other kid to move. In that case, you only penalize the first kid's action.

Chuck

Hmmmmmm, did the second kid have to move just because the first one told him to?

I have heard this question asked by more than a few veteran officials.
Therefore, they penalize both players who violated...double violation. (They use to say)

Dude
P.S. However...the new Penalty for 9-1, concerning free throw violations, could be used to back up what Chuck is saying.
Also, the old Rule 9-1 Art. 4 was fairly clear:
...nor shall any player in a marked lane space fake to cause an opponent to violate.

[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 31st, 2003 at 05:11 AM]

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 09:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
P.S. However...the new Penalty for 9-1, concerning free
throw violations, could be used to back up what Chuck is saying.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but that's exactly the point of my previous post. This year's rule change in HS (which now matches the NCAA rule) provides that only the first violation is penalized when there is more than one violation along the lane. So in the original situation, it would be very likely that one of the kids moved first and said "Wrong spot. Switch up." That's the kid that you penalize. Ignore the other kid's violation.

Chuck

Marty Rogers · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 10:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by Gre144
I only do middle school basketball so I don't know the rules to well

We'd get eaten alive around here if we didn't know the rules reffing middle school games. Does the school hire certified refs? Anyway, good luck and keep studying and asking questions.

BigJoe · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 10:41am

Chuck nailed this one. I don't think they could have moved at the same time. One of the players initiated the violation and that is the one to penalize. If it is the shooting team cancel the shot and non-shooting team gets the ball OOB at the endline if it is a bonus situation. For two shots, shoot the second free throw and continue the game. If the defending team initiates the violation, hold your whistle and award another throw if the free throw is no good.
An aside to the situation, just because you are "only" a middle school official doesn't mean that you are excused from having minimal rules knowledge. In my opinion you have more unusual situations at this level than any other. Spending time with your rules and case books is a good way to spend time while watching t.v. at night. The fact that you are on this forum is a step in the right direction as well. When reading this forum it is a good idea to have your books next to the computer so you can look up each of these situations as they are presented. Eventually, you will have the benefit of everyones odd situations so when they happen to you, you will be ready with the proper calls.
Sorry for the sermon, but I want everyone to be the best officials they can possibly be.

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 31, 2003, 11:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJoe
Chuck nailed this one. I don't think they could have moved at the same time.

Someone else might think that they DID move at the same time,though.It's completely up to the official,which I think Chuck kinda referred to somewhere.The rules allow for both scenarios.A simultaneous lane line violation is covered under FED R 9-1PENALTY3.The second scenario is covered by either R9-1PENALTY4a(first violation by B),or R9-1PENALTY1(first violation by A).