last second shot

stewcall · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:05pm

Was watching a veteran crew after my JV game. Last second shot occurred and trail was not watching. Horns sounds........... shot is then released- shot is counted by the trail. Crowd and coach go crazy. Coach goes to Lead and Lead responds well- "that is call on the floor- shot is good and walks away ( end of second quarter). I go into the locker room- yup R is giving the Lead a few words)

Got me really thinking about that last shot and getting it right.
OK- if airborne shooter is fouled and shot is not released before the horn- shot goes in
What's the call///

Thanks
a Rookie from Virginia
Stew

mj · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:12pm

Basket does not count as it wasn't released prior to the horn. Shooter does get 2 free throws though as they were in the act of shooting.

MJ

MN 3 Sport Ref · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stewcall
Was watching a veteran crew after my JV game. Last second shot occurred and trail was not watching. Horns sounds........... shot is then released- shot is counted by the trail. Crowd and coach go crazy. Coach goes to Lead and Lead responds well- "that is call on the floor- shot is good and walks away ( end of second quarter). I go into the locker room- yup R is giving the Lead a few words)

Got me really thinking about that last shot and getting it right.
OK- if airborne shooter is fouled and shot is not released before the horn- shot goes in
What's the call///

Thanks
a Rookie from Virginia
Stew

Sitch 1. If the lead has the knowledge that the shot was DEFINATELY not released before time expires he needs to have the fortitude to come in and cancel the bucket.

Sitch 2. If shooter has not returned to floor qusrter has not yet ended
(in regards to shooter. Inside joke for JR

)
Count bucket 1 throw to end quarter/half.

stewcall · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:22pm

ok what is it? I see two answers on the foul before the horn and ball released after the horn (before shooter returns to floor)
Is the basket good and one free throw
OR
is the Basket no good and two shots
Stew

MN 3 Sport Ref · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by stewcall
ok what is it? I see two answers on the foul before the horn and ball released after the horn (before shooter returns to floor)
Is the basket good and one free throw
OR
is the Basket no good and two shots
Stew

You said ball went in. Count bucket and 1 throw. MJ is incorrect as the shooter had not returned to floor. I can give you FED rule references if you need them.

As long as the player is in the act of shooting (airborne shooter) quarter has not ended.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 15th, 2003 at 11:51 AM]

w_sohl · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:24pm

You can not count the bucket if the horn sounded before the shot was released, foul or no foul. The player would be awarded two shots on a cleared lane.

stewcall · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:26pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
You can not count the bucket if the horn sounded before the shot was released, foul or no foul. The player would be awarded two shots on a cleared lane.

That was my call- just wanted to make sure! Thanks
Stew in Virginia

MN 3 Sport Ref · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
You can not count the bucket if the horn sounded before the shot was released, foul or no foul. The player would be awarded two shots on a cleared lane.

Totally correct!! I retract all above statements. Total brainfart on my part!!!

I must be way too stressed at work today!!! I'll take all the ribbing you guys can give... Sorry mj, wsohl and stew I really screwed that one up. I was thinking the ball was in flight then horn then foul before returning to floor.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 15th, 2003 at 11:50 AM]

stewcall · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
You can not count the bucket if the horn sounded before the shot was released, foul or no foul. The player would be awarded two shots on a cleared lane.

Totally correct!! I retract all above statements. Total brainfart on my part!!! I must be way too stressed at work today!!! I'll take all the ribbing you guys can give... Sorry wsohl and stew I really screwed that one up. I was thinking the ball was in flight then horn then foul before returning to floor.

NO PROBLEM..
I felt screwie asking the question...
Having too much fun as a Rookie
Stew in Virginia
CVBOA

MN 3 Sport Ref · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 12:49pm

trying to get some work done, being addicted to this board/basketball, and lack of sleep tends to have disasterous consequences. No excuse for the rules screwup though....

#11 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 01:01pm

I think that MN 3 sport ref has this slightly wrong. I had a post about this the other day. Basic situation was last second shot A1(shooter) goes up, horn sounds, shot released, basket goes. At approximately the same time the horn sounds my partner is calling a foul and then counts the basket. I was trail so I am waving off the shot so the basket won't count.

In the thread below, I came to the realization that if the shot wasn't released before the horn there is no such thing as an airborne shooter read section 4-1-1 in rule book (NFHS). Therefore in my situation if foul is before horn we shoot 2 with lane cleared, if foul is after horn we don't have a foul unless it is intentional or flagrant. In either of these cases basket doesn't count.

MN 3 Sport Ref · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 15, 2003, 01:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Blum
I think that MN 3 sport ref has this slightly wrong. I had a post about this the other day. Basic situation was last second shot A1(shooter) goes up, horn sounds, shot released, basket goes. At approximately the same time the horn sounds my partner is calling a foul and then counts the basket. I was trail so I am waving off the shot so the basket won't count.

In the thread below, I came to the realization that if the shot wasn't released before the horn there is no such thing as an airborne shooter read section 4-1-1 in rule book (NFHS). Therefore in my situation if foul is before horn we shoot 2 with lane cleared, if foul is after horn we don't have a foul unless it is intentional or flagrant. In either of these cases basket doesn't count.

JB:

Just finished reading that in rule book. I believe you are right no release and foul after horn, no call unless int. or flagrant. This sitch is not nearly as easy as it orr. sounded...

Nevadaref · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 16, 2003, 02:10am

Camron Rust got this one right in the other post that JB started.
If the sequence of the play is: (1)a shooter jumps up but has not yet released the ball for a shot, (2)the horn sounds, (3)the shooter is fouled, (4)the ball is then released. Then the correct ruling is that the quarter is over, there was no try, therefore there was never an airborne shooter, and therefore unless the foul was intentional or flagrant it is ignored.

However, if we reverse the order of #2 and #3, we now have a player fouled in the act of shooting, but still no try and therefore no airborne shooter. We will shoot two shots and the quarter will end when the free throws and all related activity is over.

Nevadaref · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 21, 2003, 07:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref
the sequence of the play is: (1)a shooter jumps up but has not yet released the ball for a shot, (2)the horn sounds, (3)the shooter is fouled, (4)the ball is then released. Then the correct ruling is that the quarter is over, there was no try, therefore there was never an airborne shooter, and therefore unless the foul was intentional or flagrant it is ignored.

This exact play occurred at the end of regulation in the Duke/UNC women's game today. The officials went to the TV monitor to determine that time had expired before both the release and the foul. They correctly sent the game to OT.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 21, 2003, 01:03pm

There is a better way to handle this type of play. I am going to make an educated assumption that this was a two-person crew.

1) Both officials need to continue officiating the way that they have been officiating for the last 31 minutes and 58 or so seconds. That means officiate in your primary areas and off-ball and on-ball as required.

2) If the Lead has on ball coverage when the shot is taken then the Lead does one of two things: 1) If the ball is out of the shooter's hand before the horn sounds then the Lead does nothing. By doing this he is telling the Trail that the ball has left the shooter's hand before tghe horn sounded and now the Trail can continue to officiate knowing that the ball continues to be live even though time has expired for the period. 2) If the ball is still in the shooter's hand when the horn sounds, the Lead sounds his whistle, thereby telling the Trail that the ball is dead and that the period is over, unless there is some unsportsmanlike activity that must be addressed.

This will also work in a three-person crew because there is no change in court coverage.