Was watching a veteran crew after my JV game. Last second shot occurred and trail was not watching. Horns sounds........... shot is then released- shot is counted by the trail. Crowd and coach go crazy. Coach goes to Lead and Lead responds well- "that is call on the floor- shot is good and walks away ( end of second quarter). I go into the locker room- yup R is giving the Lead a few words)

Got me really thinking about that last shot and getting it right.
OK- if airborne shooter is fouled and shot is not released before the horn- shot goes in
What's the call///

Thanks
a Rookie from Virginia
Stew

Basket does not count as it wasn't released prior to the horn. Shooter does get 2 free throws though as they were in the act of shooting.

MJ

Sitch 1. If the lead has the knowledge that the shot was DEFINATELY not released before time expires he needs to have the fortitude to come in and cancel the bucket.

Sitch 2. If shooter has not returned to floor qusrter has not yet ended
(in regards to shooter. Inside joke for JR :D )
Count bucket 1 throw to end quarter/half.

ok what is it? I see two answers on the foul before the horn and ball released after the horn (before shooter returns to floor)
Is the basket good and one free throw
OR
is the Basket no good and two shots
Stew

You said ball went in. Count bucket and 1 throw. MJ is incorrect as the shooter had not returned to floor. I can give you FED rule references if you need them.

As long as the player is in the act of shooting (airborne shooter) quarter has not ended.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 15th, 2003 at 11:51 AM]

You can not count the bucket if the horn sounded before the shot was released, foul or no foul. The player would be awarded two shots on a cleared lane.

That was my call- just wanted to make sure! Thanks
Stew in Virginia

Totally correct!! I retract all above statements. Total brainfart on my part!!! :confused: I must be way too stressed at work today!!! I'll take all the ribbing you guys can give... Sorry mj, wsohl and stew I really screwed that one up. I was thinking the ball was in flight then horn then foul before returning to floor.

[Edited by MN 3 Sport Ref on Jan 15th, 2003 at 11:50 AM]

NO PROBLEM..
I felt screwie asking the question...
Having too much fun as a Rookie
Stew in Virginia
CVBOA

trying to get some work done, being addicted to this board/basketball, and lack of sleep tends to have disasterous consequences. No excuse for the rules screwup though....

I think that MN 3 sport ref has this slightly wrong. I had a post about this the other day. Basic situation was last second shot A1(shooter) goes up, horn sounds, shot released, basket goes. At approximately the same time the horn sounds my partner is calling a foul and then counts the basket. I was trail so I am waving off the shot so the basket won't count.

In the thread below, I came to the realization that if the shot wasn't released before the horn there is no such thing as an airborne shooter read section 4-1-1 in rule book (NFHS). Therefore in my situation if foul is before horn we shoot 2 with lane cleared, if foul is after horn we don't have a foul unless it is intentional or flagrant. In either of these cases basket doesn't count.

JB:

Just finished reading that in rule book. I believe you are right no release and foul after horn, no call unless int. or flagrant. This sitch is not nearly as easy as it orr. sounded...

Camron Rust got this one right in the other post that JB started.
If the sequence of the play is: (1)a shooter jumps up but has not yet released the ball for a shot, (2)the horn sounds, (3)the shooter is fouled, (4)the ball is then released. Then the correct ruling is that the quarter is over, there was no try, therefore there was never an airborne shooter, and therefore unless the foul was intentional or flagrant it is ignored.

However, if we reverse the order of #2 and #3, we now have a player fouled in the act of shooting, but still no try and therefore no airborne shooter. We will shoot two shots and the quarter will end when the free throws and all related activity is over.

It just happened!!!
 

This exact play occurred at the end of regulation in the Duke/UNC women's game today. The officials went to the TV monitor to determine that time had expired before both the release and the foul. They correctly sent the game to OT.

There is a better way to handle this type of play. I am going to make an educated assumption that this was a two-person crew.

1) Both officials need to continue officiating the way that they have been officiating for the last 31 minutes and 58 or so seconds. That means officiate in your primary areas and off-ball and on-ball as required.

2) If the Lead has on ball coverage when the shot is taken then the Lead does one of two things: 1) If the ball is out of the shooter's hand before the horn sounds then the Lead does nothing. By doing this he is telling the Trail that the ball has left the shooter's hand before tghe horn sounded and now the Trail can continue to officiate knowing that the ball continues to be live even though time has expired for the period. 2) If the ball is still in the shooter's hand when the horn sounds, the Lead sounds his whistle, thereby telling the Trail that the ball is dead and that the period is over, unless there is some unsportsmanlike activity that must be addressed.

This will also work in a three-person crew because there is no change in court coverage.

WHATTTT????
 

Our association generally makes the Trail responsible for the last second shot (See paragraph 282 in the mechanics manual)

We pregame this and talk to each other at the impending end of a quarter so the trail can be positioned with the shooter and the clock in front of him (work a switch if necessary).

Mark TD, was this a mistake or am I missing something? You want the Lead to be responsible for counting or waving off the last second shot? Pease explain.

Re: WHATTTT????
 

1) Why does the trail need the clock in front of him? I wouldn't force a switch.

2) You are correct that the machanic makes one person (T in 2-person, Opposite or C in 3-person) responsible for the last shot. I've often felt, as it looks like MTD does, that it should be the responsibility of the person who has on-ball coverage.

A similar situation occurs in games using the shot clock -- we don't "Change" the mechanic so one official is responsible for determining whether a shot got off in time. Why should we change the normal game mechanics for the last-second shot?

Maybe I didn't say it well.

The Trail wants to have the shooter visible and the clock somewhere in that same field of view behind the shooter so that both the winding-down clock and the shooter can be seen simultaneously - without head/eye movement.... Sometimes we need to negotiate a switch to accomplish this. IT is done in anticipation of the last shot and is done several seconds before the shot may occur - maybe as much as a minute before.

Re: WHATTTT????
 

A1 has the ball deep in the Lead's corner. A1 shoots and the horns sounds. Who knows better than the Lead if the ball was still in A1's hand when the horn sounded. Why would you want the Trail to stop officiating his off-ball primary to look clear across the court to see if the ball was in or out of A1's hand at the buzzer. If the ball is still in A1's hand when the horn sounds, the Lead sounds his whistle. This tells the Trail and everybody else that the ball is dead. If A1 released the shot before the horn sounded the Lead does nothing. By not sounding his whistle he is telling the Trail that the ball is live and to take care of business regarding basket interference, goaltending, scoring the goal if it is good, and sounding his whistle when the ball finally does become dead.

I don't mean to sound like a smart alec, but where is it written that the Trail is to have the shooter visible and the clock somewhere in the same field of view behind the shooter. Switching to try to achieve some artificial alignment is not good practice. Just continue to officiate your primary and be aware of where the ball is and who has on-ball and off-ball duties.