Define Dunk

RookieDude · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 10:32am

Had a situation the other night where a Home team player "dunked" the ball before the game when the officials were on the court.
(About 13 minutes before game time)

Actually there were two. The first one I didn't see (wink) that well, as the player was above the rim and "pushed the ball down" without touching the rim.
The second "infraction" the player caught the ball, did a 180, again above the rim, and "pushed" the ball down" as he was facing away from the basket.(Backwards dunk) Also, didn't touch the rim. (Actually looked pretty cool, nice athletic move)

Well, the Visiting Coach saw this and took a look over at me and made a motion with his hand (kind of like we do on a made basket). I gave him a nod that indeed I had seen it and was going to penalize with a T.

Most of us do not want to start the game with a T...plain and simple...but sometimes it can't be avoided, this was one of those times...IMO.
My partner, a top 5 official, and good buddy was going to be the Referee that night. (We take turns being Referee, usually do about 4 games a year together.)
Well, he thought I was kidding when I approached him and said we were going to have to start the game with a T because of the "dunk".
I was smiling but assured him I was not kidding, and pointed to the Visiting Coach who was watching our conversation and, smiling also, shaking his head yes.
My partner said, "If you are going to call that...then you are the Referee tonight." I said, "OK, bro, no problem."

Home team Coach was informed and told that by rule he now has an indirect technical foul but, (and sorry purists) I told him we would give him some "slack" on the "seatbelt" rule.

Anyway...the players said they did not dunk...as they did not touch the rim when "pushing" the ball down through the basket. That is how they defined "dunking", touching the rim.

How would some of you define "dunking"?

Dude

Mregor · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 10:45am

Per 4-16...Dunking or stuffing is the driving, forcing, pushing or attempting to force a ball through the basket with the hands.

Nothing to do with the rim. You have to decide if they tapped / dropped / threw it in versus forcing the ball through. Never good to start with T, but if they kids are making up their own definition and the coach lets them come that close that you have to decide, then the coach needs to get control of their team and deserves the T. Make him sit. Bet they won't do that again.

Mregor

devdog69 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:04am

I have no problem at all with what you did, even the part about giving some leeway on the seatbelt, though be very careful about this. Perhaps you could have handled it better by going to them after the first one that you didn't see too well and saying "fellas that could be construed as a dunk stay away from the rim". Maybe a little preventative officiating would have done the trick, JMHO.

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Home team Coach was informed and told that by rule he now has an indirect technical foul but, (and sorry purists) I told him we would give him some "slack" on the "seatbelt" rule.

Dude,you're just setting yourself up for headaches when you start making up your own rules. If the other coach gets a T for yapping at you,you now won't be able to seatbelt him either.That's not being consistent or fair if you do.If his Assistant then gets a T,and you have to charge that head coach with an indirect T,you still aren't going to be able to seatbelt him for the same reasons.Jmo,but I think you're not doing yourself any favors in this sitch,and you sure as heck aren't helping the next set of officials that go in there and call the rules properly,and have to hear "well the last crew we had didn't seatbelt me."

RookieDude · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 11:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mregor
Bet they won't do that again.

Mregor...funny you should say that. The Home Team Coach stated that "that would be the last time his players are going to doing "ANY dunking" ANYTIME during the pregame warmups. I was kind of sorry to hear that because I know the fans like to see the displays of athleticism before the game...before the officials get on the court.

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
I have no problem at all with what you did, even the part about giving some leeway on the seatbelt, though be very careful about this. Perhaps you could have handled it better by going to them after the first one that you didn't see too well and saying "fellas that could be construed as a dunk stay away from the rim". Maybe a little preventative officiating would have done the trick, JMHO.

devodog69, thanks for your reply, but you have to be careful about what you are saying as well.
In fact, this same partner and I had a game a few years ago where a player "dunked" during the pregame warmups.
This dunk was more obvious as I heard it but didn't see it because I was observing the other team.
Well my partner did as you stated. He went over to "warn" the player about "dunking" during the warmups.
BIG MISTAKE...the opposing coach saw this and blew his stack. He quickly came to us and asked, "Where in the rule book does it say you "WARN" players about dunking in pregame!! The kid dunked, you saw it, obvioulsy, because you went and talked to him...NOW DO YOUR JOB AND "T" HIM!!"
My parnter apologized but said that we wouldn't be starting the game with a T. (The coach later apologized for getting so irrate, but said if we weren't going to call it then pretend not to see it...he was an ex-official)
I decided, after that incident, that if I was not going to T the player for a pregame dunk...then ignore it...or don't see it.

Dude

RookieDude · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 12:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
Home team Coach was informed and told that by rule he now has an indirect technical foul but, (and sorry purists) I told him we would give him some "slack" on the "seatbelt" rule.

Dude,you're just setting yourself up for headaches when you start making up your own rules. If the other coach gets a T for yapping at you,you now won't be able to seatbelt him either.That's not being consistent or fair if you do.If his Assistant then gets a T,and you have to charge that head coach with an indirect T,you still aren't going to be able to seatbelt him for the same reasons.Jmo,but I think you're not doing yourself any favors in this sitch,and you sure as heck aren't helping the next set of officials that go in there and call the rules properly,and have to hear "well the last crew we had didn't seatbelt me."

JR, I knew I could count on you to show me my evil ways.
If you were a traffic cop JR, I bet everyone you stopped would get a ticket, wouldn't they?

I must say though that I didn't really "make up my own rules", I just didn't enforce the rule to it's full potential.
I agree with you, it is not being consistent and I don't want another crew to seem over officious...but, it just felt right in this situation.

Dude

devdog69 · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude

Quote:

Originally posted by devdog69
I have no problem at all with what you did, even the part about giving some leeway on the seatbelt, though be very careful about this. Perhaps you could have handled it better by going to them after the first one that you didn't see too well and saying "fellas that could be construed as a dunk stay away from the rim". Maybe a little preventative officiating would have done the trick, JMHO.

devodog69, thanks for your reply, but you have to be careful about what you are saying as well.
In fact, this same partner and I had a game a few years ago where a player "dunked" during the pregame warmups.
This dunk was more obvious as I heard it but didn't see it because I was observing the other team.
Well my partner did as you stated. He went over to "warn" the player about "dunking" during the warmups.
BIG MISTAKE...the opposing coach saw this and blew his stack. He quickly came to us and asked, "Where in the rule book does it say you "WARN" players about dunking in pregame!! The kid dunked, you saw it, obvioulsy, because you went and talked to him...NOW DO YOUR JOB AND "T" HIM!!"
My parnter apologized but said that we wouldn't be starting the game with a T. (The coach later apologized for getting so irrate, but said if we weren't going to call it then pretend not to see it...he was an ex-official)
I decided, after that incident, that if I was not going to T the player for a pregame dunk...then ignore it...or don't see it.

Dude

If I saw it, he wouldn't have to tell me to do my job, it would be done. If, however, I just heard it, suspected it, or saw what you saw, I would handle it by telling them to stay the heck away from the rim, not by standing there and saying you are giving a T and waiting for them to do it again, and again.

[Edited by devdog69 on Jan 13th, 2003 at 11:56 AM]

Jurassic Referee · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude
[/B]

JR, I knew I could count on you to show me my evil ways.
If you were a traffic cop JR, I bet everyone you stopped would get a ticket, wouldn't they?

[/B][/QUOTE]Dude,if I give somebody a ticket for violating a law that I had just made up myself,I think that I would definitely be in the wrong.I don't have a problem with an official using their judgement to either call or ignore something.I do have a problem with an official that does call something,and then misapplies the related rule when he enforces it.

If I applied the traffic laws equally,fairly,and the way that they were written, would you say that I'm doing my job properly or not?

RookieDude · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:17pm

devdog, sorry if I didn't make myself clear.
I was going to ignore the first "dunk"...(the wink)

The second "dunk" I did indeed go over and tell the players that we had a "dunk" and a T to start the game...and to watch out for any further "dunks".

That is probably why the Visiting Coach was "asking me" with his hand motions if I was going to call the T because he saw me talking to the players.

Dude

devdog69 · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:21pm

As I said before, Rook, I think you handled it fine, but maybe it could have been better. Do you think you could have told them after the first time to knock it off and got by without giving one? Just asking.

RookieDude · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude

JR, I knew I could count on you to show me my evil ways.
If you were a traffic cop JR, I bet everyone you stopped would get a ticket, wouldn't they?

[/B]

Dude,if I give somebody a ticket for violating a law that I had just made up myself,I think that I would definitely be in the wrong.I don't have a problem with an official using their judgement to either call or ignore something.I do have a problem with an official that does call something,and then misapplies the related rule when he enforces it.

If I applied the traffic laws equally,fairly,and the way that they were written, would you say that I'm doing my job properly or not? [/B][/QUOTE]

Well JR...here is how I look at it.
If a guy is speeding and I stop him, and I see that he is not wearing his seatbelt...and btw he does not have his registration or insurance card...oh yeah, he dosen't have current tabs either...I could nail him for everything, and yes JR...then "I'm doing my job properly" as you stated.

Dude

Hawks Coach · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 01:52pm

As I made clear on another thread, I am opposed to the fact that the rule reads in such a way that a pregame dunk leads to a seatbelting of the coach. But I do not disagree with the need to follow the rules as written. You cannot enforce half of a rule. You appear to have felt that they were only "kinda, sorta" dunking, so you would only "kinda, sorta" enforce the rule. It is either a dunk or it isn't, and then the penalties apply.

Why not only give one free throw when the player only partially fouls a shooter and they miss, because it seems appropriate to the offense. They didn't really hammer them.

moose69 · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 02:25pm

Ok guys. Simples rules question here. What is the intent of this rule anyways? I think it's rather foolish. Why can't players dunk in the warm-ups?I was told that it eliminates the possibility of a shattered back board before the start of the game.Is this true?

Maybe i'm a little bitter because the only 2 times i dunked were in the warm ups.

TR

whistleblower · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 02:35pm

Why the rule? Shattered backboards, injured players, lots of other reasons. Call it if you see it.

Refneck · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 13, 2003, 02:47pm

I don't think it's that big of a deal. Every coach knows that dunking in warm-ups warrants a technical foul. If they don't, they are idiots.

If a coach is stupid enough to let his kids take the risk, it serves him right if we catch them once in a while. The coach only has himself to blame.