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-   -   anoying travel rule (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/6955-anoying-travel-rule.html)

coach2 Mon Jan 13, 2003 06:22am

Who is interested to see players at the highest level getting travelviolations at the start of their dribble?

Nobody.

So why don't the change this anoying rule (FIBA)

Who cares wether the ball leaves the hand before the pivot leaves the floor. Video shows referees and coaches make so many mistakes. Come on, lets make a point.

dhodges007 Mon Jan 13, 2003 07:12am

Why isn't this called
 
Why do you hardly ever see this situation called. A1 is passed the ball, steps forward with the right foot and then his left (hits the floor) and then shoots.

By definition this should be a travel, however, I never see it called... do you?

Rich Mon Jan 13, 2003 08:22am

To answer the original question:

I care.

This move usually springs a player around a defender. I call this 100% of the time when I see it -- at all levels. The ball must be headed towards the floor to start a dribble before the pivot comes up.

As for the second situation -- I agree with the poster, but squaring up to shoot is generally accepted and doesn't really provide a great advantage like the original poster's situation.

Rich

Hawks Coach Mon Jan 13, 2003 02:01pm

I coach. I want it called. You can do lots of neat things on offense if we set aside a few rules. But being able to beat a defender legally is part of the beauty of the game.

And for whatever level people officiate, they should be capable of making the right call at the speed the game is played, or they shouldn't be reffing that level.

Ron Mon Jan 13, 2003 02:16pm

The coach of th team whose defender is burned by an illegal dribble drive cares. As an official, that's good enough for me. Tweet!

On the other hand, there are situations where a player will lift the pivot foot before dribbling where I haven't called the travel. In the backcourt, with no pressure, is an example of this.

coach2 Mon Jan 13, 2003 07:22pm

thanks all folks,

nobody seems to have noticed the difference between the american and the european rule.

Witch is more anoying to watch?

Right the european rule.

It sucks and the old fossiel rule makers don't change it

I say speed the game up in Europe. Let the faster guys have more advantage. I don't care if we get 20 more points in a game.

Of course you are all perfect referees. Sure I made this tapes for many years. I tell you how it is interpreted: Fast boys get the most untrue violations.


Hawks Coach Mon Jan 13, 2003 08:51pm

I give up . . .
 
What is the difference between the Euro and the American rule? We don't allow the pivot foot to be lifted before the dribble. Our officials may enforce differently, because the philosophy is if you are not certain it is a travel, it is not a travel. Am I missing some rule difference here - I am not an international rules expert.

Also, this is not about refs being perfect. Players, coaches, and refs all make errors. The higher you get, the less acceptable those mistakes are, for any participant and their role in the game. serious refs, and we have many here, work on their game so that they can make these calls right most of the time. In my experience here, fast players get away with more travels because it happens too quick to see, while really slow moves may result in erroneous travel calls because they end up looking sloppier, and therefore wrong (even if they aren't).

Jay R Mon Jan 13, 2003 09:39pm

I have no idea what this guy is talking about.
FIBA rule is the same as NCAA or NF as it pertains to the start of a dribble. Interpretation may be different?

mick Mon Jan 13, 2003 10:59pm

Re: Why isn't this called
 
Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007
Why do you hardly ever see this situation called. A1 is passed the ball, steps forward with the right foot and then his left (hits the floor) and then shoots.

By definition this should be a travel, however, I never see it called... do you?

I call it after I miss the first one almost every third game. :(

BktBallRef Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:03pm

Re: Why isn't this called
 
Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007
Why do you hardly ever see this situation called. A1 is passed the ball, steps forward with the right foot and then his left (hits the floor) and then shoots.

By definition this should be a travel, however, I never see it called... do you?

Sounds to me like his right foot is his pivot.

Back In The Saddle Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:48pm

Right foot?
 
<i>Originally posted by BktBallRef</i><br>
<b>Sounds to me like his right foot is his pivot.</b>
<hr>

Why would his right foot be his pivot foot. If he catches the pass (presumably with both feet on the floor), then steps with his right first, wouldn't that make his left foot his pivot foot?

BktBallRef Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:11am

Re: Right foot?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
<i>Originally posted by BktBallRef</i><br>
<b>Sounds to me like his right foot is his pivot.</b>
<hr>

Why would his right foot be his pivot foot. If he catches the pass (presumably with both feet on the floor), then steps with his right first, wouldn't that make his left foot his pivot foot?

Why do you presume both feet are on the floor? It doesn't say that. I answered based on what was written, not what I might presume.

Back In The Saddle Tue Jan 14, 2003 12:54am

Good point. The detail seems unclear. So, what are the possibilities? He could have caught the ball with...

<ul>
<li>left foot on the floor, right in the air</li>
<li>right foot on the floor, left in the air</li>
<li>both feet on the floor</li>
<li>neither foot on the floor</li>
</ul>

In the first case, the left would be the pivot foot.

In the second, the right would be. However, the way it's worded makes this case seem less likely to me. He would be stepping forward with his left when catching the ball. (which is not what it says) Then stepping first with the right then the left. That leaves him covering a lot of ground and would be more obviously a travel than the other possibilities. I would discount this possibility.

If it were both feet, the left would be the pivot.

We don't have enough information to discuss the final option. It seems least likely to me, so I would discount it as well.

That leaves two plausible options, both of which would make the left foot the pivot foot. At least that's the way I read the question. Am I missing something?

canuckrefguy Tue Jan 14, 2003 02:02am

Technically, at the Varsity level and higher, we probably see at least 20-30 travelling violations a game, because the players' feet are moving so quickly.

But often we choose to pass on the majority of them because (a) they're so bang-bang it's debatable whether they REALLY travelled, or (b) because no advantage was gained.

Most officials recognize when a player gains an advantage by violating the travel rule, or those that look SO BAD that we just HAVE to call it. In those sit's, we call it.

To me, this is no different than passing on ticky-tacky fouls. No one wants us calling 60 fouls a game. No one wants us to make 40 traveling calls either.

Having said that, I was at a camp last year where a coach was guest speaker...instead of a speech on coach/official relationship, we got a 1/2 hour lecture on how it burned him that we never call travelling on that quick guy coming around the screen, catching a pass, shuffling his feet, and nailing a 3-point shot. Go figure.

Nevadaref Tue Jan 14, 2003 03:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
The ball must be headed towards the floor to start a dribble before the pivot comes up.

Technically, the ball must be released before the pivot foot is lifted. With the way many players push the ball forward with one hand in an attempt to get past the defender, this technicality makes a huge difference.

dhodges007 Tue Jan 14, 2003 07:26am

Re: Re: Right foot?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
<i>Originally posted by BktBallRef</i><br>
<b>Sounds to me like his right foot is his pivot.</b>
<hr>

Why would his right foot be his pivot foot. If he catches the pass (presumably with both feet on the floor), then steps with his right first, wouldn't that make his left foot his pivot foot?

Why do you presume both feet are on the floor? It doesn't say that. I answered based on what was written, not what I might presume.

Sorry, yes both feet are on the floor when the player catches it in my example.

mick Tue Jan 14, 2003 08:06am

Re: Re: Why isn't this called
 
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:

Originally posted by dhodges007
Why do you hardly ever see this situation called. A1 is passed the ball, steps forward with the right foot and then his left (hits the floor) and then shoots.

By definition this should be a travel, however, I never see it called... do you?

Sounds to me like his right foot is his pivot.

YU.P., that works too.
And that's a judgement that we have to make.
We determine when A1 receives/controls the ball in relation to when the right foot moves.
Sounded to me like A1 had the ball, then moved.
Sounded to Tony like A1 was moving when the ball arrived.
It's so simple, I wonder why the fans don't get it. ;)

gsf23 Tue Jan 14, 2003 09:12am

I think what the poster of this thread is trying to say is that too many travelling violations are called at the high levels of FIBA. I don't think he is talking about high school ball here.

How many times have you seen Allen Iverson called for a travel?? If you read the original thread he talks about the players at the HIGHEST levels. European pros get called for travelling a lot more than in the states. I think that is the rule he is referring too, and the differences he is referring to.

hawkk Tue Jan 14, 2003 09:17am

But t has always seemd to me that the one travel calls that NBA refs DO call consistantly is pulling the pivot at the start of the move

coach2 Wed Jan 15, 2003 09:18am

back to topic
 
This discussion is out of topic.

I think I have to be more specific.

When we get American players here it is obvious that they were used to a different way of looking at the travelrule.

It looked to us that all our U.S. players were allowed to move the pivot before the ball leaves the hand. There are no exceptions. All players played at top college level.

When they get the ball in the run the make a two count and then they start dribbling.

When they make an open step they first step and then they start dribbling. Everybody knows it, there is no questioning about it. It is a well known issue in Europe.

In fact I think this is the right natural way to start your dribble but it is called time after time. It is also obvious that it is not called in the US, witch must make the game more enjoyable because it is not interupted for moves that are in the flow of the action.

I am not a referee but I like to watch and coach basketball. As I have seen it for about 20 years now, I am sure that the American way of interpreting the rules is much more fun for the crowd, coach, players and referees.

[Edited by coach2 on Jan 15th, 2003 at 08:21 AM]

coach2 Wed Jan 15, 2003 09:24am

gsf23 is right!

w_sohl Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:57am

It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player could lift his pivot foot before starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass befor the pivot foot was returned to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?

MN 3 Sport Ref Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player could lift his pivot foot before starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass befor the pivot foot was returned to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?
You got it right (FED NC2A) Pass/shot must be released or dribble started before pivot is lifted. If this occurs nearly simultaneously it is legal.

mick Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player could lift his pivot foot before starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass<u> befor the pivot foot was returned</u> to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?
w_sohl,
Not quite right.
Check out Case 4.43.3 Situation C
That'll help.
mick

Pirate Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:16pm

Simply put, the dribble must be started before the pivot foot is lifted. The pass and shot can be made/completed while the pivot foot is lifted as long as the pivot foot does not return to the floor before completion of the pass/shot.

w_sohl Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player COULD lift his pivot foot BEFORE starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass BEFORE the pivot foot was RETURNED to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?
You got it right (FED NC2A) Pass/shot must be released or dribble started before pivot is lifted. If this occurs nearly simultaneously it is legal.

You say I got it right in your post but contridict my statement. Now I am really confused.

MN 3 Sport Ref Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player COULD lift his pivot foot BEFORE starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass BEFORE the pivot foot was RETURNED to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?
You got it right (FED NC2A) Pass/shot must be released or dribble started before pivot is lifted. If this occurs nearly simultaneously it is legal.

You say I got it right in your post but contridict my statement. Now I am really confused.

It is your quote that is contradicting. How can a player start a dribble before he starts a dribble???

"BEFORE starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started"

I simply overlooked your error as I thought you did not mean to word it that way.

dhodges007 Wed Jan 15, 2003 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Pirate
Simply put, the dribble must be started before the pivot foot is lifted. The pass and shot can be made/completed while the pivot foot is lifted as long as the pivot foot does not return to the floor before completion of the pass/shot.
That's correct. You have to dribble before the pivot foot is lifted, otherwise travel. You can lift the pivot foot before you shoot or pass; however, it can not come back down. If so -- travel.

Hawks Coach Wed Jan 15, 2003 01:50pm

There are at least two conflicting lines of thought on this thread, so lets go straight to the rules.

Rule 4, SECTION 43 TRAVELING
ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

I have seen it said that you can lift in all cases, lift in none of the cases, and the correct rule which is stated above. The dribble is different than the shot or pass by rule.

w_sohl Wed Jan 15, 2003 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
There are at least two conflicting lines of thought on this thread, so lets go straight to the rules.

Rule 4, SECTION 43 TRAVELING
ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

I have seen it said that you can lift in all cases, lift in none of the cases, and the correct rule which is stated above. The dribble is different than the shot or pass by rule.

I would have gotten it right 2/3 of the time before, but now I will get it right all of the time....

I was going to look it up later anyway, thanks for saving me the time Coach

coach2 Wed Jan 15, 2003 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
It was my understanding (from a rules meeting) that a player could lift his pivot foot before starting a dribble or making a pass as long as the dribble was started or the ball was released on the pass befor the pivot foot was returned to the floor. Is this an incorrect rules interpretation?
You got it right (FED NC2A) Pass/shot must be released or dribble started before pivot is lifted. If this occurs nearly simultaneously it is legal.

I think the keyword here is nearly. I totaly agree. Nearly is good enough!! Everybody should keep this in mind especialy in Europe!

MN 3 Sport Ref Wed Jan 15, 2003 02:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
There are at least two conflicting lines of thought on this thread, so lets go straight to the rules.

Rule 4, SECTION 43 TRAVELING
ART. 3 . . . After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

I have seen it said that you can lift in all cases, lift in none of the cases, and the correct rule which is stated above. The dribble is different than the shot or pass by rule.

Hawks is 100% correct here. Pivot may be lifted but not returned to floor for pass or shot. On dribble, dribble must be initiated before pivot is lifted. If only all coaches were students of the game like you Hawks!!! :D


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