a=offense b=defense

hello all,
im a rule interpeter here in virginia and i just wanna thank you guys and gals for all your help!

here is my question: one of my basketball officials called and asked me about a situation that happened in his game last night.

game tied "A" has ball "A" has just called there last
timeout with 9sec. left. mr g the gentlemen that called me said his partner went over and informed the team that they have no more timeouts. the game is tied at this point. after timeout mr g gives the ball to "A" for the throw in when a player from team "A" throws his hand up for a timeout. mr g said no more t.o. for you guys and immediately partner comes in and gives a "T" for the team calling a T.O. immediately mr g knew the game situation here and he talked too his partner, lets ignore his timeout and put the ball in play, because we both no they dont have any timeouts left. so why give it and if we call this "T", this is no way for a team too loose a game. the game went into triple overtime. and of course i got a call from the athletic director and he said my guys did and excellent job.

this is my question.

how would you guys have handled this situation?

Under NCAA rules, you can't ignore the time-out request here---you must grant it and call the T. NF rules may be different.

Rule 5-12. Excessive Timeout
Art. 1. Timeouts in excess of the allotted number may be requested and shall be granted at the expense of an indirect technical foul charged to the offending team for each taken.

The use of the word "shall" ("...shall be granted...") indicates to me that the officials must grant the request if made.

Sorry to dissappoint Mr G., but Coach A was informed he had no remaining TOs...it is his job to pass that information on to the players. I grant the TO request and assess the T for the excessive TO. To be blunt about it, Mr G. knew the game situation and decided to put team B at a substantial disadvantage by choosing to ignore the rules. :( The decision may have cost team B the game and definetly cost them the opportunity to win in regulation. The only reason I say it may have cost B the game is because while your defense may be able to stiffle B's hotshot during a live ball, their best FT shooter can overcome the defense with a couple of clutch shots and team B did have the opportunity to make adjustments during the game.

Seems to remember an NCAA Tourny game decided by this same thing.

thanks larry for the insight, the games are all about situations and how you handle them, i just wanna make sure this never happens again and everybody is on the same page when they on the court.

The NFHS rules references are R10-1-7 and Casebook play 10.1.7. Note that it's a team T,with no indirect charged to the head coach.

Yes, by rule<li>Grant the time out
and
<li>Assess the Techincal foul

Agreed.

As posted earlier, I am going to disagree a little bit.
I spoke with our assignor/interpreter about my earlier situation and this is what he said and I agree. (of course!)
Don't let the officials decide the game. If you know they have no TO's left, don't give it to them. If it is just one player asking there are 4 still trying to get the ball in play. If the person with the ball is asking, then you will have a 5 second call most likely and then a turn over. This would allow the PLAYERS to decide the game. In my case my partner granted the TO in the back court with 4 seconds left. Had he ignored it, the clock would have run out with no 10 sec violation or we would have had a foul, either way the PLAYERS decided the game, not us.
Also, I believe I recall in our rules meeting that a TO is not a TO until the official GRANTS the TO.
Now feel free to filtet me like a fish!! <><

The problem with this is that the coach is entitled to that timeout. It is specifically in the rulebook that the coach can buy a timeout with a technical foul.

What you and your assignor is doing is breaking basic rules of basketball, plain and simple.

Filleted enough?

Rich,please let me add that they are also screwing the other team by not giving them the 2 FT's and possession that they deserved.They have just put themselves into a situation where the OFFICIALS may have decided that game.That is wrong,wrong,wrong!

...Yet your assignor wants you to decide the game.
That's an "Owee!", fletch.

What if you do not know?
 

There are many times when the table does not tell you the amount of timeouts or your partners might not inform you either. You always grant timeouts when requested, regardless of your knowledge of the team's status. If that one kid asks for a timeout, someone realized that he or she asked for it. Someone other than you or your partner's. You always grant them, no matter what!!! But I will say if an assignor tried to put my feet to the fire and say not grant them, I might then just call the timeout and if he does not want me to work for him based on that one thing, I will move on.

Peace

If I may "pile on" here...
The players DID decide the game...when they requested the excessive timeout.
Basketball is not only about athletic skill but, intelligence and knowledge of the game.
TO's are a part of this game.
(Grant the TO if requested)

Dude

Re: What if you do not know?
 

I feel properly fileted! A couple of things: 1. The key to the whole discussion is knowledge of the TO situation. If I don't know or have doubt, I give it too them in a hurry. If I do know they are out I w a i t a w h i l e before granting. 2. Ifit is EXTREMELY obvious (in my game it wasn't) that they are calling TO I don't think I have a choice. You can always go back to th UM/UNC Chris Webber TO as one that is obvious and had to be granted. But what if it was Steve Fisher asking for a TO and the players kept playing?
Either way it is a dicy situation.

I am a Michigan fan, and hate to say it, but it doesn't matter who requested the TO. If they can legitimately request the TO, you HAVE TO grant it. The coach's job is to know and to ensure his players know.

And you never know how things will turn out. As Tom Arnold said on BDSSP (under things you shouldn't say to a Michigan fan) "Good thing Chris Webber called that stupid TO, cause otherwise you would have had to pull down a national championship banner."

Additionally
 

There is no rule that says an official must notify the coach of his timeout situation. They tend to keep track of their own - for what other reason do they have all those silly assistant coaches anyway (saw 6 coaches and 5 subs the other day)?

The mechanics manual (not a rule) in paragraph 272 says "Notify the coach when a team has used their allotted time-outs."

It is a courtesy and not a rule. AND there are surely times when you don't want to be over there saying "You only have one timeout left, Coach." However, I still do it, too.

No brainer...

1. Grant TO
2. Assess T

Fletch: if it's Steve Fisher, then you give him what he wants. He's getting paid good money to make his own decisions.

At least in NCAA, they won't lose posession.

Re: Additionally
 

Uh,Tony,check out RULE 2-11-6.You're supposed to notify a team and it's coach when they've used their last TO,BY RULE.

Fletch,

Your assignor is asking you to cheat and to ignore a rule that must be enforced. He does not belong assigning games. If your interpreter agrees with that, then he is a baseless, spinless individual. He does not belong interpreting. Like someone else said, the players are deciding the game by the request for a timeout.

I'd check this guys IQ or common sense because he is missing something there. It seems to be a cop out to say well, the situation, blah blah blah.

I'm with the guy that would move on to better pastures.

Oh, my !
 

Take it easy ronald.
Name calling is for fans, not refs. :rolleyes:

Ron, how do you really feel? :p

Hodges,

Outraged at the thought process of that assignor/interpreter.

RON,
Perhaps you should try decaf or breakfast cereal lower in sugar.
I have nothing but the UTMOST respect for our assignor and our interprter. It is no more a blatant ignoring of rules, IMHO, then waiting until 7 or 8 seconds talking to someone and then calling "3 seconds" As far as being a "Cop" imagine if all State Troopers pulled everyone over who was exceeding the speed limit by 1 mph. As I think I have stated, if it is obvious to EVERYONE then I gotta grant the TO, IF I can delay the call a little bit to either let the time expire (in my game it was 4 sec.) OR for a coach to scream WE DON'T HAVE ANY, then I am going to give them that leway. IF I don't know 100% what the time - out situation is then I am going to grant it immediately. So YES, in this scenario there ARE situations that need to be looked at.

You are absolutely wrong and are blinded by the "respect" you have for your assignor. Your assignor is absolutely wrong, too.

If you see or hear a timeout request, then in your mind you have acknowledged that request and you should report the timeout. You are giving the team that requests the timeout an advantage they don't deserve.

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Jan 15th, 2003 at 07:28 AM]

Did I ever mention we GRANTED the TO request? After viewing these replies I probably would do that again. I am NOT saying I wouldn't wait a few beats before granting, but if he is intent on asking for the TO, I am giving it to him.
The only hang up I have is that they are asking for something they don't necessarily have. How many times have we missed a travel call or let a 3 second call go and have the players and coaches ASKING that we make the call? I know a TO is a little different, but it is a hump I need to get over and will. Considering this has only happened about 2 times in the last 3 years, it is not something that occurs frequently, but need to be prepared when it does.
BTW, our assignor is a 3 sport college official.

fletch,
It's time to concede that putt. ;)
mick

I agree. I knew I would get filleted BUT it is always good to get other trains of thoughts.
I say we drop it and move on.
I am glad someone else concedes putts!

One last thing to add to the discussion. In basketball, you HAVE TO grant the TO. Like someone else said, the players are deciding the game by asking for too many timeouts.

For those of you that work football, it is the opposite ruling. If you know they don't have any TO's, you CAN'T grant a timeout. But this forum is basketball, and therefore, you must grant it!!

DITTO
 

I hear ya Vik 2!!! :d

Welcome to the board. This board is getting pretty strong with Minnesota guys. Where/ What level do you wortk here in MN. I work in SE Minn (roch). I work FB as well and was thinking the same thing about not granting in FB.

Re: DITTO
 

Deleted.

[Edited by ScottParks on Jan 15th, 2003 at 03:51 PM]

Re: Re: DITTO
 

Your reference is....?

Re: Re: Re: DITTO
 

Don't have one. It was intended to be a joke about U.P., hence all the smilies, but I guess it missed the mark.

Sorry!

[Edited by ScottParks on Jan 15th, 2003 at 03:57 PM]

Don't have one. It was intended to be a joke about U.P., hence all the smilies, but I guess it missed the mark.[/B][/QUOTE]Uh,Scott,unless they moved it,the U(pper) P(eninsula) is in Michigan,not Minnesota.:D
http://www.uselessgraphics.com/duh.gif

JR supports!!! A virtual Brown Pop for him!!!!

Uh,Scott,unless they moved it,the U(pper) P(eninsula) is in Michigan,not Minnesota.:D
http://www.uselessgraphics.com/duh.gif [/B][/QUOTE]I said it missed the mark. Didn't realize that I was speaking geographically also.

http://213.239.157.21/smilies/beerglass.gif
I've been to the U.P. I've fished in the U.P. A back garden still has Petoskey stones that my wife brought back from the U.P. It's a beautiful place.

Now if we could just do something with the Youppers... :D

I said it missed the mark. Didn't realize that I was speaking geographically also. [/B][/QUOTE]We know that you were just kidding,Scott. We were,too.

Jurassic had it bang on....other team got screwed by not awarding them 2 potentially game-winning free throws.

Bottom line: Team A player and/or coach zoned out. An administrative T is a lousy way to lose a game, but that's not our problem.

I'm also willing to bet the AD who was so pleased with the way the crew handled the game was the AD of the WINNING SCHOOL. If not, kudos to that AD for being a good sport!

Wonder what would have happened if the officials in Chris Webber's game decided not to call the T?

Re: Re: Re: Re: DITTO
 

Scott,
I was born in Minnesota and on Saturday evenings I am inclined to listen to Minnesota Public Radio, in particular <u>A Prarie Home Companion</u> with Host Garrison Keillor.
Garrison Keillor’s signature monologue is "The News from Lake Wobegon."

Keillor always ends that segment with :"And that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where the women are strong, the men are good lookin', and the children are all above average. "

You weren't far off joking about something I may have said.
I'll drink to that!

mick

With regards to knowing that a team has no timeout and hesitating to give them one, has anyone ever seen a player or coach ask for a timeout and then remember and correct himself? "Timeout, timeout! No, wait, we don't have one.
Never mind." Or I suppose a more likely scenario would be the player who was trapped and facing a turnover who calls for timeout much to his coach's dismay. Player: "Timeout!"
Coach: "No, we don't want timeout!" Is there any leeway here? As written,(10-1-7) the rule says that "A team shall not request an excess time-out." In other words, the technical occurs when the request is made, not when the timeout is granted. Therefore, how can we ignore this request any more than we can ignore the player who steps out of bounds because he had lost his bearings on the court.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DITTO
 

Well, mick, it's breakfast time.

I think I'm going to go have a Powdermilk Biscuit - Heavens, they're tasty and expeditious! :D

If it happens during "playing action" (generally defined as either live ball or clock running), then I'd be inclined to grant the TO.

If it happens during a stoppage of play (after a foul or violation, for example), I might glance at the coach quizically to, umm, be sure I hear the request correctly the second time. ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DITTO
 

Thanks for letting me off the hook, mick.

And assess the "T" for the excess TO, correct?

I think that would be obvious -- just like I don't say "and award the ball to the other team" when I post "I would call the violation"

I think we are missing an important point
 

Hi,

I'm a 2nd year ref so I find myself reading this board religously in order to learn the nuances of the game. By doing so its become much easier to handle those odd situations that I might not have been prepared for previously. Now I sure don't claim to be an expert on the rules, but in this case I think there is another compelling reason to call the "T" in that many times when a player sees an opponent signal for a T.O. they become distracted by that or let down their guard. If that was the case, team "A" would be gaining a very unfair advantage over team "B" because the ref did not grant the T.O. request.

Also mnref14, I worked the game immediately prior to yours on 1/10 at STA. I had the opportunity to watch you and your partner officiate the 1st Quarter and I was impressed with what I saw. Nice job of managing the game.

Thanks for listening/reading and I surely welcome any input that you may have on this topic.

Later...

Ha! I've been told the only thing wrong with NY is it is filled with NY'ers.

Does this make me a hypocrite?
 

Maybe this will FINALLY give this closure:
JV game. Team A coach pulls a Pete Guillen and calls all of his TO's before the end of the 3rd. (He was up 10 most of the game). 1 minute into the 4th, Team B pressing, OOB count getting close to 5 (i assume, i was trail/new lead) and Team A player asks for the TO. Partner hesitates to grant the to. About that time, Team A player requests a TO from me. NO hesitation, Tweet "Time Out - White" Now comes the fun. Team A coach says we can't give him a TO or the resulting T since he had no more TO's and we knew it. Team B Coach says it is a Technical foul and Team A can't have the TO. I give Team A the TO, Team B 2 shots and the ball and off we go. After the game, partner says he wasn't going to grant the TO because they did not have any!! So I was properly educated by the board!!

BTW: My partner also told the official scorer each team had 2 Full's and 3 :30's EACH HALF. That was fun trying to correct!