This situation has now happened twice in two seperate games, both Girls Varsity tourney games. First game a couple of weeks ago, the first half went fine both teams playing well without a lot of fouls. Second half they both come out and are pressing all over the floor. Early in the 4th quarter I am lead and there is a loss ball that White picks up and then black in going for the ball falls on white knocking her down and forcing her to bump her head on the a knee or the floor not sure which. I call the foul and the coach starts out on to the floor almost immediately to check on his girl, while on his way out he starts saying something like I was wondering when this was going to happen basically saying that we weren't calling the game close enough and had let it get out of hand. Interesting part about that statement was that we were already in the double bonus for at least one team with the other one or two fouls behind. I had already given the coach the stop sign and told him I had had enough prior to this incident, however I didn't feel that I should have T'd him up because he needed to check on his girl.

Now the 2nd situation was last night, black team getting blown out by about 20 early 4th quarter again. A loss ball gets bounced high up in the air and one player from black and white jump up after it. When they are coming down white happened to jump higher but they both had their hands on the ball when they came down. Since white jumped higher black came down first out of bounds so I blew my whistle and gave white the ball. Well in coming down the black's girl inured her shoulder. The coach from black had been whining basically nonstop the entire game but nothing really loud or bad. In this case I had to call the coach onto the floor to check out his girl. As he was getting to her he turns to me and says something like "I hate to say this but your officiating caused this and it should have been a foul" and then he starts checking out his girl still mumbling something. When he got the first sentence out I had heard enough and told him to check on his girl and that was it. When he started mumbling as he turned away from me to check his girl I was upset that he had kept complaining like that and was about half a second from giving him a T. However, my partner had arrived just before I was going to T him and told me to walk away towards half court as this was occuring on the base line.

My main question is how would anyone on this board have handled these situations? Do you treat it the same as if the coach were doing this during a live or dead ball without the inury or would you treat it differently because of the injury?

Sorry for the long post but this really got me upset last night and I needed to vent, Thanks.

Jerry

My advice is for you to get as far away as possible from the injured player once you beckon the coach onto the floor.

A good rule of thumb is that anytime you beckon a coach onto the court to attend an injured player - get away from that player...do not give the coach the opportunity to make those kinds of comments to you because you are still close to the player...by the time the coach got out there, I would already be standing at half-court with my partner - probably with my back to the coach so he/she doesn't have the chance to make those quiet comments...and dang it - Dan beat me...

In the first situations, the first thing to remember is that the coach *technically* shouldn't be out on the court without being beckoned. (Of course, as long as he's just checking on his player, I'm willing to go Chuck's route on no one seeing the beckoning signal.)

Being beckoned or not being beckoned, however, does not give the coach permission to yell at you or make comments you normally wouldn't take from him. That said, I would give the coach a tiny bit more rope on his leash - still your call as to how much you give him.

Jerry,
I obviously haven't seen you officiate, but for what it's worth:
<LI> We get into more problems not calling fouls than calling phantom fouls. ( <i>For me, I still like to see 'em instead of guess 'em.</i>)
<li> Rethink the "Let 'em play scenario".
<LI> If you have to call 40 fouls, do it.
mick

Dan's back!! Dan's back!! Yea!!!
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Sparky,
Yer back!
Cool!
mick

I agree with dan, you need to get away from this situation as quickly as possible, don't let the coach get those "under his breath" comments in.

Mick,
The only problem I have with you saying "Rethink the let em play scenario" is in the first situation I had called the foul and we were calling everything that we saw(I don't recall a play in that game where I even thought I am going to let 'em play. In the second game we again were calling quite a few fouls and on the play that the girl got hurt there was nothing to call as they both went up for the ball and both came down with their hands on the ball, therefore there was nothing I could do.

Woof-woof-woof
 

I like Mark's rope analogy. "Coach, you have reached the end of your rope. Charge me again and be choked." That would put a smile on my face... seeing that dog hit the end of his rope.

I've had coaches before that wanted to blame me for the level of competitiveness... and do it during the double-bonus flurry of calling-fouls-like-mad. I say BS coach; you are more responsible for the level of play on this court than I am. You coach these kids; you trained them; you motivate them; you tell them what to do. I just try to make them play at the same level by equally enforcing the rules.

Maybe the first guy as disappointed in his "coached" team?
Maybe the second guy was mad because he didn't get a held ball? Who knows?
Hope your next few games are normal.

mick...I was thinking the same thing. :D

Dude

Injuries increase emotions
 

DTTB is right, but I have a far different take on his statement's applicability to this situation. We coach these players, we work with them on a daily basis, they become an extension of our family, and we hate to see them go down on the court injured. Add to that we are in a competitive situation. I see a lot of coaches that maintain their cool in other situations just lose it when a player gets hurt.

Get away is the best advice, because the coach is least likely to be able to think reasonably when there is an injured player. This is especially true when no foul is called or a foul or violation is called on the injured player. While the no-call or adverse call may be the right call, that's not going to be what most coaches think.

If you are close enough to hear something, be willing to listen to a little more but not too much - and then give the stop sign or a cut-off comment ("Coach, you need to attend to your player") and get away. Injuries are ugly and bring out the worst. It should pass if you give it a chance. Try to avoid letting the emotions of that type of situation impact the game.

Thanks for the help. You are probably right about getting away from the situation so the coach doesn't have a chance to say anything. I was standing about 10 ft or so away from the injured player when said this to me in the second situation and I did cut him off by saying that he needed to attend to his player. But from the suggestions that you guys have given I would have been better to get away to half court.

This should help the next time I have this situation.

Thanks again.

By moving away from the injury, you give the upset coach 2 choices: (1) tend to his injured player or (2) ignore the player rolling around in pain and chase after you. If he chooses no. 2, everyone in the gym will understand if you T him.

One thing to remember - no matter how many fouls you call or don't call, it makes no difference as to whether or not a player gets hurt later in the game unless the injury was the result of intentionally rough play by another player.

Incidental contact happens and players sometimes get hurt. No amount of previously called fouls will prevent this. Don't feel guilty when this happens and second guess yourself about not calling enough fouls.

Jerry - My Advice
 

Anytime a Coach: 1.Questions Your Integrity or 2. Blames a player's injury on you; you do not have to feel bad about giving them a T - it is just another foul - too many officials feel giving a T is a life-changing or game-changing experience - it is not. I rarely give a T, however, there is no way a coach should be allowed to approach you and accuse you of getting a player hurt. Athletes get hurt often, and it has nothing to do with you calling too many or not enough fouls. My least favorite thing a coach can say to me is: "I don't want to see anyone get hurt out here." The couple times I've heard that I've wanted to say: "Oh, well I guess you feel that I do want to see someone get hurt. Yes, that was my plan Coach - I came here tonight hoping some player would get hurt - that's my one and only goal for this evening." Its ridiculous, I've never gone into a game to cheat anyone - so don't insinuate that I am. Jerry, you were a big man to walk away; but don't let the same coach pull it twice!!!

Good Luck

Welcome to the board MNref 14 (wasn't long ago you guys were saying that to me...) Where do you work ball in the metro??? What level do you work??? I work in SE minnesota (rochester) HS and small college.

Gees, that's pretty country down there. Maybe cuz yer so close to Packerland. ;)
Love Red Wing.

Mick:

Yeah we kinda have it made if you like not knowing what the weather is going to be like until you step out side 55 degrees today Jan 7!!! Yes Red Wing is awesome, I live about 1 hr from there, officiate there once in a while and would absolutely love to live there. As far as the cheeseheads they blew it big time (I am kinda a closet fan went to college in Madison) I'm surprized farve is not blaming the refs for this one too.

MN 3 Sport -
Red Wing is one of my old "stomping grounds" as a teen. I grew up across the lake from Lake City. :)

I would rather live with a 12 win season than what occurred in the metrodome.

Why did you chose to attend Madison? :D

Willie:

Very true FB is made to be played outside anyways. I knew I could get someone to knock the Vikes if I made fun of Favre(cheeseheads are predictable) :D (remember I am a clost fan. I went to Madison to pursue a degree in Molecular Biology/Genetics which I now am putting to use obtaining my MS working in Immunogenetics at MAYO clinic (Rochester) Madison was a great town I am still a big Badgers fan...

3 Sport
 

Thanks for the welcome - this is an awesome site. I'm going to spread the word to our MN reffing brothers. As for me I work High School Boys and Girls Varsity and Men's College - D III in the UMAC, D II in the NSIC, and Junior College. I also do High School Football. I'm a teacher in the Twin Cities and most of my officiating is in the Metro Area. There are a ton of good refs here, a lot of great people to learn from. A lot of good ball too!!!

Later

Oh great - just what we need is another teacher here...let me guess, you probably teach middle school, right??? :) There are several of us edjicaters on the board - always glad to have another one...

I feel smarter just thinking about that.

MN3sport - how's the basketball scene around Rochester? Mayo will probably be one of the (many) med schools to which I apply, and it would be nice to know what the officiating opportunities are up there.

You working for Clonaid now? ;)

Chuck

Mark: Lots of HS ball to work around here but college opertunities are limited. I work a few Juco's w/in about a 1 hr radius. All of the div 3 stuff I do is processed through the metro (minneapolis St.Paul) I have recieved these games via going to camps and meeting assignors.

actually we are working on genetically engeneering a coach that not only knows the rules, but only opens his yapper when he needs to coach his team. (No wonder we never get anything done in science.... Generatinmg a coach like that is impossible) :D

I think you need to just get away from the injured player, because the first situation the coach could have been just saying I knew something like this would happen because it has been a rough game, he might not be disagreeeing with your calls

Mn14 you sure hit home with my pet peeve.The next time a coach says your going to get someone hurt out here i'm going to sock him!I would have much more respect for a coach who told the truth and said hey I feel your missing some fouls against my team.

refjef40,
Then, ... do you "Whack!" him cuz it means the same thing?
mick

EASY!!!! (please!)
 

Please understand that we are coaching kids that we like, and now we see them getting bounced around a court. I am a little more tolerant than most coaches in my group about physical play, but no coach wants to see his players hurt. And yes, we also enter with a bias, so we aren't as likely to see that our players are contributing to the physical play. So yeah, when we say it's getting rough, we are more likely than not seeing the game with some blinders on and only seeing that their players are banging up our players.

That said, I can't understand why this remark gets to you so badly. The impulse to want a foul called when your players are hitting the deck is far less objectionable in my mind than asking for travelling or 3 seconds.

My personal objection to remarks like these is that they aren't very helpful (just as telling your players "don't turn the ball over isn't useful - tell them something that helps prevent the turnover!). If I am upset about something, it will rarely be one missed call, but usually will be the fact that their center is setting illegal picks (e.g., shoving my players on a screen) on every possession, or their point guard shoves off every time she makes a move around her defender. If I have an objection about rough play, it will be specific as to who is doing it and what they are doing. Anything else is stupid, but also pretty harmless.

More thoughts on Coach/Ref Discussion
 

Coach and Fellow Officials -

My main point is and was this: When a coach states to you - "Clean it up, I don't want to see anyone get hurt." It seems to me that the coach is insinuating that I, as an official, don't care if anyone gets hurt. That is nonsense.

I'll even be more honest here, in High School Girls Basketball often and Boys as well - sometimes the play can be clumsy - 2 or more players will be fighting over loose balls - tie-ups, etc. Often times someone in that pile-up may come up hurt - its not necessarily a foul - its awkward, gangly players being awkward and gangly. 9 times out of 10 you'll either have a Coach or a loving Father in the stands lose their cool. Its not the referee's fault, don't place the blame on us; none of us will let purposely harmful players get away with dirty, cheap fouls.

I've been reading this board for a week, and a lot of officials' here are working 7th and 8th grade ball - fans, coaches, and officials at these games need to realize, that despite a ref's best efforts - these games can easily become a Train Wreck. Games at this level are often times tougher to work than the College games I work, players at that age are often out of control and coaches may be coaching at that level just to fill a spot. I admire you men and women who are willing to work hard at getting better at your craft and give these kids a good game - keep up the good work, no matter how unappreciated you are!!!

Hi Jerry, hope you had a great holiday.

This is my input, for what it is worth. I totally agree with the other posters about getting away from the injured player and coach. If you gave the stop sign the first time, then there is no more toleration. In that situation, if he is chirping at you prior to attending the injured player, let him attend the player. Once the player is off the floor, take the "t" to the table for the coaches unsportsmanlike conduct. He will be totally shocked, but oh well!!!

We are not going to allow these coaches to do this crap.
I am curious to whom these coaches are so I can be on alert with the other officials. Can you email me [email protected]

Keep up the great work Jerry, your counterparts are speaking very highly of you. I will catch up to you soon.

regards,
John