Nice situation that happend to me last night:
whilst in act of shoothing it was a rough physical contact between the shooter and the defensive player and the ball enters the basket.the lead official(me) calls a charging foul and therefore the basket shall not count but the trail official who also the refree ,calls a defensive foul and therefore the basket shall count.what should i do in this situation?jump ball?

As you are getting with your partner...you are thinking..."gosh, I sure wish we had gone over this in our pre-game."

We talk about this in our pregame. If a play is coming towards an official, he/she usually will have the call.
Sometimes this sort of thing happens, you don't like it, but it just does. I would have liked to seen the Trail official hold his signal, if he really thought he had to blow his whistle on this play.
If he is adamant that the call should be a "block" insead of a "charge"...then you both have to decide which way you are going to go. (The stronger official usually prevails here.)
No way go with a "jump ball" as you stated! Go with either a "block" or a "charge"...simple as that.

Next time remember to pregame this type of situation, so you won't look lost on the floor.

Dude

we did talk about situation like this in the pre-game but.....
you think that the "stronger" refree should take this call?
and why not a jump ball?like a doubel foul?

RookieDude is correct. The officials must decide which is the correct call and go with it. The last thing that you should do is go with the AP arrow. In my pregames, I always say that in case of a double whistle we should both hold off indicating the actual foul...usually one of the two officials will then indicate that the other person should have the call. That way there is no conflict between the officials.

Unless FIBA rules are different on this point, and it's very possible that they are, RookieDude and firedoc are not correct. In NF, NCAA, and NBA rules if two officials signal opposite fouls, one offensive and one defensive, then you penalize both and go to the arrow (or jump ball in NBA). In NCAA, if the offensive team retains possession as a result of the AP, then there is no reset of the shot clock. In the NBA, if the offensive team wins the jump ball, then the shot clock remains where it is or is reset to 14, whichever is greater.

The key here is whether both officials signaled. Once the conflicting signals are given, both fouls must be assessed.

If there is a specific FIBA rule that addresses this, then you may safely ignore this entire post, b/c I have no idea what FIBA rules are. Where the heck is Duane?!?!?!

Chuck

For the Fed ruling, see casebook play 4.19.7C. I'm sorry, but I don't have my NCAA book closeby. Maybe Bob J knows the citation.

Chuck

you are right ChuckEilas

So what did you end up doing, Romano? Score it and go to the jump ball?

chuck

From the FIBA RULES BOOK:
art 45-double foul
DEFINITION: "A doubel foul is situation in which two opposing players commit contact foul against each other at approximately the same time."
can i see my situation as doubel foul?

NO ChuckElias
in the end we decieded to call only offensive foul and he cancelled his call.but all night i was thinking about this situation...

[Edited by ROMANO on Jan 6th, 2003 at 10:16 AM]

Uhmmmm...careful here Chuck...in the NCAA, the men's side handles it the way you said...on the women's side, we have been specifically told NOT to call both fouls, but to get together, decide whose primary it was in, and that official takes the foul... very strong emphasis on this from both Weston and Jacobs at the meetings this past fall...

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Chuck, I will ignore your post...I like your rule reference, but in pratice, I don't like the call.(Apparently I'm not alone...either do Weston or Jacobs)

You ask why? Simply put, when we get together to talk about our "simultaneous" calls, we find that one of us actually had the call before the other one.

It will be a quick conversation but, will include things such as:
<*> who is really adamant about this call
<*> who was the play coming to (who's primary)
<*> who was in the best position to get this call
<*> who is coming out to "sell" this call
<*> who's buying the refreshments after the game for not holding their signal :)

Dude

Sigh. My bad. I keep forgetting that the women's side arbitrarily decides which rules to ignore. I think that, in this case, the Weston/Jacobs/RookieDude interpretation may actually be better; but it's not the rule. If the rule gets changed, fine; but until it does, RookieDude, you better do it the right way in case you're observed. Just my opinion.

Chuck

Anyway the basket shall not be awarded ,we all agree about that?

Depends...if you have the "charge" no basket.
If you have the "block" basket good and one FT.
If you have "both" fouls, as Chuck pointed out, by rule you have double fouls...therefore the ball does not become dead...bucket is good...go to the arrow.

Dude

[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 6th, 2003 at 10:45 AM]

This thread is a good one in that it really stresses some important issues for me. Foremost the importance of a good pregame. IF properly discussed, that is why with the double whistle we first both come up w/ a fist. IF the play is coming to the lead he better come out and sell the block or charge. Problem avoided. Yes, the trail may have saw the opposite and not like it but I guess around here we really stress staying in primary's and calling YOUR foul there. If the lead (primary) was not sure about the call then he should have passed on it and allowed the trail to then pick it up. I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that this occured on a dribble/drive sitch where the play was in transition from one primary to the other. However Chuck is correct about what needs to be done (FED) where you see conflicting siganls given. Hopefully though IMO w/ proper pregame this can be avoided 99.99%of the time...

Ha! I like this. Watching a D-I women's crew work last week I also like the fact that they never seem to switch on fouls either :)

Do any high school associations NOT switch on EVERY foul? Just curious.

Actually, this is why I never come up with anything but a fist (I recognize that this is NOT the college mechanic). If my partner comes up with a call going either way, I let him have the call regardless of what I saw. If we both come up with a fist, then I assume that the call will be made by the official to whom the play is coming.

Editorially speaking, I think the rule is weak. Either the play was a block or a charge, not both. While it is not proper according to the rules, I think the NCAA women have come up with a common sense way to approach the situation. I hear that next year they are going to include flogging the official that shouldn't have made the call in the first place :)

Rich

in the NCAA woman games the rules are diffrent?

Makes one look stupid
 

Had a similar call a couple years back to open my season... first game of the season, first call of the game. I'm lead. Drive comes from forward toward the baseline and then turns toward the key along the baseline. I jump accross the key to see the action. I'm about 3-5 feet away when the collision occurs. I fire up my fist yelling "BLOCK" and come booming out to report. Everyone seems uninterested in what I have to report. My new-to-varsity partner has already reported.... and reported a player control foul! Now the scorer's table wants to know which foul to put in the book. Neither of us was aware that the other had called anything.

Despite my call being made from the location of the foul and my "partner's" being made from 30 feet away I recanted and let his call stand. It was his side of the key and he had some cockamamie story about the dribbler leading into the defender with the non-dribbling arm. I didn't feel the defender was properly in position... basically he was first to report and I sucked it up and let him have the honor of embarrassing me.

It made us look stupid. I also can see how a coach would feel slighted. If the play can go either way why should only my player get a foul? That's a definite advantage as two centers go at it and one of them gets an extra foul.

Wish I would have been working with Chuck then both players would have been evenly penalized and we wouldn't have looked so poor. Of course there would probably have only been one whistle... right Chuck.

Re: Makes one look stupid
 

Maybe not. . . but there would have been only one secondary signal!

Chuck

Interesting because this sitch occured twice yesterday. Both times I was trail and we had a double whistle, I hesitated and gave the call to my partner. At half, he asks if I had the same call, I didn't. Good thing I hesitated because you can end up looking STUPID.

As for Romano's question. I do ref FIBA rules (mostly). I don't think that the double foul rule exists to cover a block-charge. It seems to me in this situation, you go with block or charge. In this case, the lead should take the call as the ball as going towards him.

The FIBA rule book specifically states that two fouls cannot occur at the same time (except for a double foul).
Example, if there is a shooting foul and a foul away from the ball at approx. the same time, the officials must determine which came first. (FIBA)

I would think block-charge is the same idea, it's either a block or a charge. Even if you get wrong, call something.

Yes. We don't make long switches. It's the approved mechanic for three-person and often used for two-whistle.

in israel we are not swich each other after a foul in the back court(i think you call it long swiches)

Curious, here, where was the shooter when all this happened?

Free throw line? Down by the blocks? Top of the circle? It'd help to know where the foul(s) occurred.

My instincts tell me your partner had a quick whistle here, unless you were straightlined or something.

Also, THE BEST CALL IS NO CALL may be catchy, and may apply some of the time, but it's not a mantra I'd go by.

The shooter was down by the blocke, near the basket and i was the lead official.
the problem is that you must give respect to you'r partner and in my situaiton he was the refree.

Canuckrefguy
sometimes NO CALL IS THE BEST CALL!
but in this situation ONE CALL IS THE BEST CALL..

Your partner may have been "the referee" but he was out of line here, in my books. Down by the blocks, there is NO WAY the trail should be blowing his whistle, unless there's something CATASTROPHIC that the lead has missed.

If it was up by the free throw line, that's an okay double-whistle, but down by the blocks is the LEAD'S AREA in 2-person mechanics, unless you are totally blocked out on the play, and you need your partner's help to bail you out.

Your partner ignored the two biggest rules of officiating:

1) Trust your partner
2) Watch your primary

Also, in 2-person crews, referee or umpire makes NO DIFFERENCE. You're out there together, equal, and equally accountable.

You made the right call here from what I can see, too bad you didn't stick with it.

The one thing the other guys nailed right on was the bit about pre-game...establish what to do on double-whistles, and more importantly, how to prevent them!

Sorry....correction....you DID stick with your call, and your partner agreed, so you BOTH did the right thing!

He still shouldn't have blown his whistle, though.

Canuckrefguy
Can you please tell me partner("the refree")this information?.....
because he doesn't understand me....
THANK YOU..

Was this two-person or three?

If two, was the play on the Lead's side of the paint or the trail's?

If three, where did the play originate?

I don't get hung up on most double whistles. They happen, as many times contact happens close to the line dividing areas of responsibility.

Plus, to me it doesn't look bad if there are two officials with a fist in the air as long as the two officials handle what comes next properly.

This is where you have to make eye contact with your partner -- and if the play is going away from you let your partner take it to the table. Drop your fist once your partner heads to the table.

In 2-man mechanics, the lead official should take most fouls on a double whistle for 2 reasons:

(1) The play is coming towards the official and this has always been fairly standard 2-man mechanics.

(2) It forces the switch, which if you are following NFHS mechanics you are required to do anyway. So lead comes out and reports while the trail gets in position and observes the players.

Sometimes when I'm working with an unfamiliar partner and this situation happens I'll even take a step forward and say, "You have it." If I'm the lead and this situation happens, I'll start heading to the table unless my partner has already turned to report.

There's nothing I hate more than a partner calling something right in front of my face (happened Friday -- I was lead and the 2 players were three feet in front of me and my partner called a nothing foul from trail across the court) but if the play happens near the division (or even in the lane) I'm not going to get upset.

Rich

Bob
We officiat in israel 2 refrees in each game.
The foul was in area 5 near the basket.i was standing right, in a good place.

Rich
It's make my upset when my partner's call should be only my call when i'm standing in the right position.but this things happend in all over the world (as i can see at you'r situation Rich)from the FIBA RULES BOOK:"NEITHER OFFICIAL SHALL HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DISREGARD OR QUESTION THE DECISIONS MADE BY THE OTHER REFREE"....

Rich is right, don't get too hung up on this one.

I didn't mean to make it sound like a MAJOR flaw, because it wasn't. I just wanted to make sure you knew that you were right to take the call.

We all blow out of our area from time to time (I can think of one from my HS Varsity game tonight). Even Rich and the other seasoned vets can probably think of a recent personal example (or maybe not, I get the impression those guys are pretty darn good).

The key is how we handle these situations. In your case, you and your partner handled it the right way.

Now go have fun your next game...and don't forget to talk about double-whistles in your pre-game!

O.K
LET'S go and have some fun....
This is why i'm saying :;no call is the best call..sometimes"..

[Edited by ROMANO on Jan 8th, 2003 at 07:10 AM]

Sadly this casebook play does not tell us whether or not the team that was just scored upon may run the endline if they receive the AP throw-in. I would let them.

Sorry
but what are you talking about?

I believe that anytime there is a made or awarded score, the team entitled to the ball has the privilege of running the endline. Is there any exception to this?

Chuck

I think in this case, ROMANO called an offensive foul, disallowed the basket....and although his partner called a block, they went with the charge.

In this case, no endline, I think.

As for exceptions, can't think of any off the top of my head.

Ok, if that's what happened in the original case, that's fine. But the situation that I quoted specifically said that the points had been scored. That's why I gave the answer I did.