Tongue Stud (?)

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Ref Daddy
Please brother Ref's ...Lets keep this on a productive track.....

Here's where I am -

I don't like them & rules sound clear, so

Can you take these things in/out like earrings?
Am I asking too much?

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter - if they can't take it off, they can't play. (I often joke about even "soldered" jewelery having to come off.)

That having been said, it's amazing how quickly so-called 'permanent' jewelery comes off when told that they can't play without it.

[Tim C]

I have selected to withdraw from this thread and allow the darkside to claim victory.

Thank you all for teaching me a lot about each of you and mostly thank you for allowing me to learn about myself.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Dec 28th, 2002 at 04:00 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C

My issue does not come down to anything other than I laugh at loud when "barnyard" lawyers start saying stuff like, "you'll get your butt sued" . . . when there is NO DOCUMENTATION that that can, in fact, happen.

C'Ya all at half time, when I hand out the evaluations.

Tee

"Barnyard lawyers"?.Fits right in with "no freaking clue what you are talking about".You sure are a class act,Tee!

Btw,you haven't explained yet exactly what YOUR legal basis is for disclaiming everything that you have so far.You haven't posted one thing that would back up any of your statements.Exactly how do you know that there is NO DOCUMENTATION?Just gonna disappear without answering Kelvin's posts,too?

You also haven't posted anything on this board yet that would convince me that any evaluation that you would make of anyone,if it concerned the rules or the mechanics of basketball officiating,would be of any worthwile use to them.I get the feeling that you would be unable to evaluate certain individuals on this forum in an impersonal mannner,which is a prime requisite.Again,that's not personal on my part,just MHO.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Tim C
1) The document from NASO is not a legal brief. It is simply a paper.

2) The case you have listed has NO legal backing. It was settled out of court. No it does not only not scare me it makes me laugh. So try again.

3) I have NEVER said that I would or would not tell any player to remove the tongue stud. Any of you that have made that comment either can't read or have no argument with the facts, so you attack the person.

4) I have no problem with the "Big Dogs" on this board fighting for their patch of hardwood but I would think someone would be better and prove to me that in a legal proceeding an official has been found liable for an injury incurred by a player wearing jewelery in a FEDlandia game. That is all I have asked.

5) BTW, I get the exact treatment on this board that I was told I would get when I started posting items that the Basketball "Big Dogs" on this board control.

Have a great day after Christmas.

I ask you two questions and you take that as an attack? Wow. I believe you're anticipating the foul, not the play.

I don't know whether there's ever been a suit brought or not. Like I said, it doesn't matter to me because I'm not going to put myself in that position, if I can help it.

Like I said, no need to apologize, you're entitled to your opinion.

[Kelvin green]

Tim
Barnyard lawyers? Give me a break. Where did you take your Tort Liability Class? or your legal precedence class?

THIS IS SIMPLE TORT LAW!

Most cases do not have published opinions unless they were heard on appeal... If there was a jury verdict and no appeal there would not be a record without spending a ton of research...

But I guess I am pigheaded go figure admit your wrong!

If you knew anything about Torts you would not be so arrogant to think that referees have not been sued for their actions.... Ask Jim Bain... he filed suit and the defendants counterclaimed with a referee malpractice case that went all the way to the Iowa Supreme Court it was tossed up still had to be litigated!


In Smith v. National Football League, Bubba Smith,sued for injuries he suffered from hitting an aluminum down marker which remained fixed in the ground during play. He alleged that the equipment was dangerous, and that the officials holding the chains were negligent for not ensuring the marker was removed. While the officials were not found to be liable, the case is significant because the issue was allowed to go to the jury, establishing for the first time that a sports official could be found liable for negligence during an athletic event. YOURE RIGHT THE OFFICIALS WON THIS BUT THE PRECEDENCE TP TAKE IT TO A JURY WAS ESTABLISHED.

IF WE CAN BE FOUND LIABLE WE WILL!

In Carabba v. Anacortes School District No. 103,the plaintiff, a high school wrestler, sued the school district through its agent, the referee. the case raised the possibility of imposing liability on an official for failing to properly supervise the athletic contest.


if a sports official's conduct is found to be the cause in fact of an injury, a plaintiff must next establish whether there exists legal liability in the form of proximate causation. Once proximate cause and factual causation are proven, liability may be imposed on the official if no plausible defenses to counter the claim exist.

THIS GOES BACK TO A FAMOUS CASE HADLEY V BAXENDALE....


Officials get sued! Deal with it... Many get settled. Most probably dont get appealed. The ones that do get appealed are where they bring in a deep pockets to get more money and school districts, athletic associations, etc are involved.

The ability to sue has been established by the courts. The only way to win the lawsuit is hope that the state has liability limitation/immunity statutes for sports officials.. or you prove that your actions were not reckless, negligent, or grossly negligent.

I agree with others on the board I will not put myself in a position to have to try and defend a lawsuit. It takes time, money and a lot of grief to go through some of these suits and we dont need the grief.

BTW I found an article that stated in Wisconsin, sports officials have been sued since at least 1914 in that case the boxing referee was exonerated but the point is suits have happened for almost 100 years and they arent going away!







[Edited by Kelvin green on Dec 27th, 2002 at 01:12 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Kelvin,those posts that you made were a whole bunch of work on your part.

They were interesting,pertintent and germane,and useful!

Thanks.

[Brian Watson]

Who are these mysterious "big dogs" who dominate discussion? I see no venom or way of topic argument here.

Tim, I am still waiting to know why proof of a lawsuit is so important to you?

[theboys]

This kinda fits into the topic, so figured I'd ask. Have you ever warned a team or player about behavior that could ultimately prove dangerous?

An example: We participated in a high school varsity tournament last week. First game, played a team of floppin' fools. In the 2nd quarter one of our players broke in for a lay-up. A defender set his position on the weakside of the basket. When our player came down he came down on the defender. Charge was called, no problem. But, the defender, in his attempt to make the charge look good, flopped. When he did he effectively undercut our player. Our player fell awkwardly and broke his wrist. Had surgery yesterday.

Don't get me wrong - in no way were the officials at fault, and the defender wasn't trying to play dirty, just a very unfortunate situation. But, if the defender hadn't flopped we simply would've turned the ball over, and run to the other end.

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by theboys
This kinda fits into the topic, so figured I'd ask. Have you ever warned a team or player about behavior that could ultimately prove dangerous?

An example: We participated in a high school varsity tournament last week. First game, played a team of floppin' fools. In the 2nd quarter one of our players broke in for a lay-up. A defender set his position on the weakside of the basket. When our player came down he came down on the defender. Charge was called, no problem. But, the defender, in his attempt to make the charge look good, flopped. When he did he effectively undercut our player. Our player fell awkwardly and broke his wrist. Had surgery yesterday.

Don't get me wrong - in no way were the officials at fault, and the defender wasn't trying to play dirty, just a very unfortunate situation. But, if the defender hadn't flopped we simply would've turned the ball over, and run to the other end.

It all depends on what the official sees. If I saw him clearly flop w/o contact, I am going to hit the D with the foul in this sitch. If I see contact, it could be a different call. It is one of thoose hafta see it plays. Too bad your kid got hurt, no one wants to ever see that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C
There is no legal precedant in the US that has EVER found an offical legally responsible for any jewelery issue.

TEE

Omigod! I just realized that we've been arguing the legality of wearing jewelry with Mr. TEE!

[Tim C]

I have selected to withdraw from this thread and allow y'all to claim your vicotries.

I have, by participating in this thread, learned a whole lot about each of you and a "hole" lot about myself.

Thanks for all the valuable information.

Tee

[Edited by Tim C on Dec 28th, 2002 at 04:02 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Ref
Omigod! I just realized that we've been arguing the legality of wearing jewelry with Mr. TEE!

Originally posted by Tim C
Another personal attack . . . my what a guy!

Tim,

I've stayed out of this thread because (a) I have no legal background whatsoever and (b) I felt that some of the posts were getting overly defensive and didn't want to contribute to anyone's angst. I don't want to be perceived as making personal attacks. So nothing in this post is intended as a personal attack, ok?

But. . . do you really think that JR's comment above is a personal attack? Honestly? Can you not see that this is intended as a humorous observation? Mr. T from the "A-Team" arguing about jewelry, and then you sign your posts as "Tee"? Don't you see the humor in that? It's in no way an attack of any kind. You claim that you are being attacked when, in my opinion, no one has attacked you at all in this whole thread. I think that you have misinterpreted some comments, and generally have missed out on the good-natured ribbing that we often give (and I more often get) on this board.

Gentlemen, the request to "prove" something that has never happened is a classic arguement by people who have no facts to win an arguement.

First of all, logically speaking, that's not necessarily true. It is possible in some cases to prove that something never happened. And, in fact, if we had every legal ruling that was ever made at our disposal, we could -- with a lot of effort -- prove conclusively whether or not an official has ever been found liable for injury; or whatever we're trying to discuss in this thread. (Remember, I have no legal background whatsoever!! )

Second of all, isn't this exactly what you have asked JR and Kelvin to do -- prove something that you claim has never happened? Please understand, this is NOT a personal attack. It's an honest question. You say that asking for proof of something that never happened is "a classic arguement by people who have no facts". But aren't you claiming that this kind of finding has never happened? So if they can't come up with the right kind of example, you assume that you "win" the argument? I don't think you can have it both ways. I may be wrong about that, but at first glance, it looks to me as if you're doing what you say JR and Kelvin shouldn't do. Nothing personal, ok?

Only people who "think" they are a "Big Dog" would be upset at a comment directed towards "Big Dogs" and that, genetlemen makes my final point. If you are offended by the comments to "Big Dogism" then maybe you better read your posts.

Again, simply not true. Perhaps we think we know who you are labeling as a "big dog" and feel that person doesn't deserve to be maligned. Most of us here couldn't care less what you (or any other poster) thinks of us. But we get to know each other a little bit and might be upset when somebody bad-mouths somebody we like. Again, it's nothing personal. Just pointing out your inaccurate generalization.

Kevin noted that there were 250 processes filed against individual officials yet he could not post ONE time where an official was held resposnible in a court of law for an injury caused by jewelery.

Again, this doesn't prove that there never has been such a case. Just means he couldn't find it in the first 20 pages of google results.

As I said before I am attempting to return to my "whole in the ground"

Your whole what? The whole enchilada? The whole shebang? The whole truth and nothing but the truth?

and leave this group to stand for what it appears to be.

It appears to me to be a place where a lot of officials come to learn and share knowledge and where other officials come and get pissed off b/c they have a chip on their shoulders. Nothing personal

I would suggest to not try to match educational background with "The Tee" . . . you might wind up being surprised.

Glad to see that you aren't caught up in ego issues. That gives your posts a lot more credibility. Nothing personal.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Originally posted by Tim C
I would suggest to not try to match educational background with "The Tee" . . . you might wind up being surprised.

Glad to see that you aren't caught up in ego issues. That gives your posts a lot more credibility. Nothing personal.

Chuck [/QUOTE]

I see that Mr. Tee has now removed his infamous remark. Too late Tee! Chuck has already busted you!

I'm sure that Nr. Tee was referring to myself and Jurassic Referee as "big dogs." If he chooses to do so, that's his choice. I could care less. I simply asked him two questions. If he considers that a personal attack, he won't last long here anyway.

And quite honestly, who cares? I haven't read any of his posts that actually add anything to a rules or case play discussion. If you don't have anything to contribute, you won't be missed. So, go back to your "whole," if that's what you wish to do.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Tim C
Another personal attack . . . my what a guy!

As I said before I am attempting to return to my "whole in the ground" and leave this group to stand for what it appears to be.

Lah me
TEE
Did you not see
the smilie?

It 'twas placed at the top of the post.It was specifically put there to denote the fact that I was just funnin'.

If you thought that that was "another personal attack",please accept my humble and heartfelt apologies.

Now you may return to your whole in the ground.We shall continue to stand for what we appear to be. In the immortal words of that great philosopher, Popeye- "I yam what I yam!".

Now go. Leave. Shoo...shoo..

[Tim C]

I am selecting to withdraw from this thread. Chuck's post has cleared many of the obstacles from my point of vision.

I have learned much about each of you by reading the indivdual posts more than once.

Take care and make sure there are no overtimes.

Tee