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-   -   Indiana vs Kentucky (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/6705-indiana-vs-kentucky.html)

braboa Mon Dec 23, 2002 02:45pm

Anyone see the game? Bert Smith was the official who made the controversial non-call. But did he give Mike Davis too much cushion before hitting him with the second technical? He was really trying not to give it to him. I'll give Smith credit for seeming amazingly calm and collected as Davis barked in his ear while following him toward the scorer's table. He even asked Davis to "Walk away" several times. I'm just curious how some of you other guys might have handled it. I think I would've been quicker with the second technical. I like Davis, but I think he was way out of line. By the way, Davis apologized for the outburst. When has a coach ever done that?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn

Brad Mon Dec 23, 2002 03:59pm

I thought that he did an incredible job of handling the situation.

The first technical was a given — Davis knew that when he headed out onto the court.

So, you have a 1-point game with 10 seconds left and you are going to shoot two free throws for the technical. At this point I think that you want to avoid having to assess another one. The last thing you want are people thinking that you were too quick on the trigger on the second one.

The way that Bert handled it, there was no doubt that Davis deserved the second one. Bert said, "Walk away" at least 3-4 times before he finally whacked him the second time. Ample opportunity for the coach to regain composure.

As a final note, until I am working an Big Ten / SEC game on ESPN like this, I think I'll hold back on the what-I-think-I'd-do comments... There is no way to compare the pressure in that game and in that situation to something that happens at the high school or JuCo level, IMHO.

- Brad

CLAY Mon Dec 23, 2002 04:34pm

I watched the game and on the replay Bert was out of position to make a call. With the game on the line he should have closed down on the play, but he chose to stay back and make a no call. I think he knew he was out of position and that is why he gave Davis so much time before he gave the T

Jay R Mon Dec 23, 2002 05:14pm

I thought he handled it superbly. Gave Davis the chance to leave, but had to eventually T him a second time.

As for the call, a very difficult call to make. They showed the replay a few times. I even rewound the tape and slowed it down to see, it still wasn't clear. If there was a foul, it was probably #50 (Edsill?) who pushed an Indiana player into his teammate. Maybe one of the other officials could have picked that up. These officials did not have the luxury to review the tape.

John Schaefferkoetter Mon Dec 23, 2002 05:40pm

How can anybody, (fellow official, fan, player, or coach) criticize Bert the way he handled the situation? First of all, I don't think any official wants to determine the outcome of the game, unless it is an obvious foul, violation, etc. The IU layup was a terrible shot, hitting the bottom of the backboard. There was no obvious contact that made the layup a disadvantage.

Bert's composure was unbelievable. So calm and cool, giving coach Davis every opportunity in the world to cool down. Only one pointer to the young officials out there, whenever a coach comes out towards you, walk them back to their box to become less conspicuous.

Coach Davis showed no class by coming on to the court, but showed class by stating he was wrong, admitting his mistake.


Jurassic Referee Mon Dec 23, 2002 06:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by John Schaefferkoetter
Only one pointer to the young officials out there, whenever a coach comes out towards you, walk them back to their box to become less conspicuous.


Just an added observation to your pointer,John--if the coach is coming after you,be very,very careful that you don't touch him or make contact with him when you're trying to get him back to his box.Give 'em nothing to complain about or get mad at.It's a little different when you're the 2nd official in and you get in between trying to help out your partner.

Rich Mon Dec 23, 2002 06:39pm

The call is irrelevant....
 
A coach has no business out on the floor.

Period.

The merits of the call or no call aren't worth discussing, unless we turn this into a discussion on 3-man mechanics.

I wonder what the IU administrators thought when they saw Davis come out on the floor, though. A flashback, perhaps? :)

Rich

2on3 Mon Dec 23, 2002 07:14pm

My only question is where was his partners when davis came out on the floor? One of them should have been between Davis and the calling official. I don't think the other crew members left him out there by himself. I feel someone should have walked Davis back to the coaching box. This could have prevented a second T. If the second T were called the second member should have given it. Where is good help when you need it.

BktBallRef Tue Dec 24, 2002 02:05am

According to ESPN, the first T was given by Mike Woods, who was the trail official and out of camera view.

JRutledge Tue Dec 24, 2002 03:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad


As a final note, until I am working an Big Ten / SEC game on ESPN like this, I think I'll hold back on the what-I-think-I'd-do comments... There is no way to compare the pressure in that game and in that situation to something that happens at the high school or JuCo level, IMHO.

- Brad

It is really easy to sit at home and say what you should do or what the officials did wrong. But when you are the one on the firing range yourself, decisions are not so easy. ;)

Peace

Nevadaref Tue Dec 24, 2002 06:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

The merits of the call or no call aren't worth discussing, unless we turn this into a discussion on 3-man mechanics.


I can't be the only one who feels that this was the C's call, can I?

Rich Tue Dec 24, 2002 08:46am

Nope. I agree completely.

(Here's where I'll probably show some ignorance. I've worked some three-man in HS playoffs in the past and I'm planning on attending a 3-man camp in the spring and will read up thoroughly on the mechanics before I do, but right now will just make an relatively uninformed observation.)

With players moving as fast as they do, I've always thought that old-time wisdom (the official to whom the play is heading is responsible) was flawed.

The C on this play has both angle AND distance (I'll stop before I sound like a baseball clinician) and I think the best position to make the call.

Even if the lead initiated a switch, I would think that the trail would have the best view of the entire play developing. Sometimes more distance is a good thing.

I had a play last week where a player drove the lane and plowed into a defender near the basket. Even working as deep as I could, I had a heckuva time getting both driver and defender into the same visual frame at the same time. While unconventional, there's no doubt in my mind that the trail would have a better view of the play -- well, excepting of course that the driver and the defender were both in my primary and neither ever left it.

Rich


bard Tue Dec 24, 2002 09:25am

Davis may get suspended
 
http://www.indystar.com/print/articl...-6729-036.html

deeno27 Fri Dec 27, 2002 02:51pm

I heard they might suspend Davis for 5-6 games. Hey, it's not like he threw a chair or anything!!

My opinion is that the second technical could have come a little quicker. The official did a good job of trying to de-escalate Davis by saying "walk away", but I would have only said it twice (however, I'm still a rookie official) . By saing it several times, the ref "gave Davis a gift"--kind of opens up the can of worms that people may interpret as "sorry, we missed that call, so here's your chance to back down before we tech you again".

Just my opinion. I was watching the game and screamming "c'mon, tech him again!!" even though I really wanted Indiana to win. Davis was in the wrong, and his staff was no help. It was an easy call to make. At least Davis apologized for the error, and admitted that his error put the final nail in the coffin for that game. Games can be won with less than five seconds on the clock. It ain't easy, but it can be done.

Diana

BktBallRef Fri Dec 27, 2002 06:28pm

Quote:

Originally posted by deeno27
I heard they might suspend Davis for 5-6 games. Hey, it's not like he threw a chair or anything!!
If memory serves, throwing a chair is only a one game suspension! :(


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