Last night was one of the times that made me appreciate this board, because I would otherwise have booted a couple of calls...

Boys, 8A game. A1 drives the lane and puts up a shot. Crashes into B1, who had good position, after the release of the shot. The shot goes in and I wave it off with the PC. Coach A, who is also an official, gives me an earful that the basket should have counted. Me, "Coach, 4.19 in the Case book says a player charged with a PC foul cannot score."

Same game, team A shoots 2 airballs from short distance. My P, a 5 year vet, calls A for 3-seconds because the "ball never hit the rim." I say nothing, and their is no complaint from anyone. I question him at half about when team control ends. He pulls out his book and says, "You're right. I shouldn't have called that."

Towards end of the game, B is blowing A out of the water by 30 or so, and B has the ball. A1 runs up and gives B1 a 2-handed shove in the back. Clear intentional foul. I call it and go to bench to report. Coach A comes a couple of steps out on the floor and asks if I called the intentional foul because I heard him yelling "Foul! Foul!" or because of the push. I say it was obviously because of the push, "Because I never listen to you anyway coach!" (For what it's worth, I really didn't hear the coach yelling. The gym was pretty loud at that time.)

It was said in the right spirit, and the coach laughed and said it was a good call.

I bet you were feeling "On top of the world" after that game.

Well.... at least your confidence was boosted. Atta Boy to BARD!

Why would the coach yell"Foul" at the end of a 30 point game?

I'm glad he was able to learn from it. If your partner makes a call like this and you DON'T ask him about it afterward, you are adding to the problem. Thanks bard for helping him, and in turn all of us, out.

Now not to come down on the anti-Rut side of things (because I agree that presence is as important, if not more important, than rules knowledge), but in this case, your partner lost more points in my eyes than he would for not having shiny shoes or a confident attitude! I'll admit I often judge officials I haven't seen before by their appearance and how they carry themselves (be honest, who doesn't?), but after making this call, I'd immediately write this guy off in my head as a guy who doesn't know the rules, and therefore, a not very good official.

<i>Do you have all the case number memorized or just that one?</i>

I have very few memorized, but thanks to a previous discussion on this board, I happened to know this one.

<i>your partner lost more points in my eyes </i>

Despite some shortcomings on his rule knowledge (he had one other call that was incorrect), I really enjoyed working with him. Just a nice guy. I don't want to spawn one of the discussions with Rut, but he was a good example of someone strong on presence and short on rules. He does need to improve his rules knowledge.

<i>Why would the coach yell"Foul" at the end of a 30 point game? </i>

Good question. I'm guessing he was either looking for a teaching opportunity or hoping for an opportunity for his guys to end on a positive note. Just before the halftime buzzer, he did have a kid nail a 3 from the division line. But that was the high point of the game for them.

This is a trick that a softball buddy of mine suggests. Memorize one or two common rule references that seem to be misunderstood by most people, and use it like bard did here.

It makes you look like you have the whole damn book memorized!

Rules knowledge can contribute greatly to your presence!! :D

But if the shooter A1 crashed into B1 AFTER THE RELEASE, the bucket would count. A1 would be called for a personal foul (push foul). This is not a player control.

The key word is AFTER.

This is NOT true for Fed. If the airborne shooter commits a foul, it is a player control foul and the basket is waved off even if the crash happens after the release.

This is an NCAA men's rule only. There is no airborne shooter in NCAA mens. In NF and NCAA women's there is an airborne shooter rule so you CANNOT count the basket in a game with NF rules.

(Sorry for the double post--got beaten to the punch)

The ball becomes dead immediately on a player control foul, he made the right call. When airborne a1 comes down on b1 it is a player control foul on a1.

I think you are getting into an area I would try to avoid here. Quoting references, unless can quote them, all can get you into trouble. What do you say to a coach who questions another ruling and you don't know the reference? What if he asks you what the reference is? I believe you can lose credibility if you are asked another time and you don't know the answer as quickly as you spout off the first one. Smart coaches will ask for the reference, I've seen it happen. Why not just say "you can never score with a PC foul"? Same message and not likely to get the coach after you about another reference point.

This worked out ok for you, but why let the coach come "a couple of steps on the floor" (emphasis mine) to question a call? Is that getting into T territory? Did you ask him to get back into the box or warn him at all? IMO, bench decorum and dealing with coaches well will separate you from the majority of other officials because most do not pay attention to the coaches and let the coaches do inappropriate things without penalty. Do a good job with the benches and it will reflect well on you. I think you are well on your way to doing this.

I'm confused
 

Bard, I'm a little confused. You said that A1 crashed into B1 after the shot was in the air. Unless A1 was still an airborne shooter, then there would be no player control foul. The foul would have to be simply a push after the shot. For it to be a player control foul, A1 would have to still be in control of the ball ie. driving to the basket when the contact occured or be an airborne shooter and crash into B1 on the way back down regardless of whether the contact was before or after the ball was in flight. Typically, we will pass on the push call on the shooter after the shot unless it is really severe because it is a really hard sell.

This worked out ok for you, but why let the coach come "a couple of steps on the floor" (emphasis mine) to question a call? Is that getting into T territory? Did you ask him to get back into the box or warn him at all? IMO, bench decorum and dealing with coaches well will separate you from the majority of other officials because most do not pay attention to the coaches and let the coaches do inappropriate things without penalty. Do a good job with the benches and it will reflect well on you. I think you are well on your way to doing this.

Stripes
I think Bard was saying that the coach asked for the reason for the ruling, not that he questioned the call. If done in the right way, during a dead ball when it is being reported, I can't see how this is anywhere close to a T. If the coach is criticizing by use of a question, that is a different matter.

Ralph, I disagree
 

Ralph, I believe that if a1 shoots then crashes into b1 you still have a player control foul on a1. It does not matter if he shot it before he crashed or not. This basket would be waived off. Read 4.19.6 in the case book.

Re: Ralph, I disagree
 

What Ralph said above (I think) was that if A1 had returned to the floor after a shot, he was no longer an airborne shooter. Therefore, no PC foul.

Sure
 

If A1 shot, came down, took some steps then pushed I can agree. Shot counts. But that was not what I got from the original post.

Coaches are not entitled to be on the court, regardless of the reason, unless called by an official. The penalty is a T. Now I am not saying that the coach should automatically be assessed a T for what he did, but it has to be addressed. The coach needs to be in his box, even for what he did.

Maybe I didn't get my point across very well to bard. Answer the question, clarify or whatever the coach needed, but help the coach understand that he will not get answers on the floor, only in the box. Being on the court gets T's. Too many coaches, IMO, do not understand this because officials will not enforce the rule or will not get the coach off the floor before helping him.

Just for clarification, the shooter collided with the defender prior to his feet returning to the floor. It was a pretty good collision. I concur that there would have been no PC if the shooters feet had hit the floor first.

In regards to the coach coming out on the floor, I did not have a problem with it for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, there were probably only 2' from the line to the bench--this is an old gym that I played in nearly 30 years ago. The coach can't very well stand up without stepping on the court.

Second, the coach was not challenging the call and was not being disrespectful. No big deal, in my opinion.

Good thought about not quoting chapter and verse, because it may be expected more often. I got caught up in the excitement of just being able to do so! ;-)

bard --

I use the "quote chapter and verse" technique occasionally. It works very well, as a rule. I had one coach come back at me a couple of plays later with, "I suppose that's rule 5-9" I said, "No rule 5 is Scorers and Timers. What applies here is 10-6, Legal and Illegal Contact." Pretty well had him in my pockt the rest of the game. Felt great!

Two things: 1) You have to be right, or very, very close. The easiest way to pull this off is to memorize most of rule 4. Almost everything is in there, one way or another. And then memorize the bare bones of the other rules, and use only the rule number as in my quote above: "Rule 5 is Scorers and Timers". Most coaches have no idea that each rule number actually applies to several pages of material.

B) Use no sarcasm at all, and don't yell at all. Make it very relaxed and conversational, as if you expect him to already know this stuff. Don't use it on coaches who are really on the verge of losing self-control. Either use it early in the game, or only on coaches who have some detachment. You don't want to push some poor losing sap over the edge.

Stripes
I think when you consider bench decorum, you should be more concerned with what is being said and how it is being said rather than where it is being said. If a coach is behaving well and not giving you a load of BS, you should be ready to listen if he asks you a respectful question (i.e., is not questioning the call, but wants to know what you were calling). In this case, his approaching you at or right next to the sideline during a dead ball should not be a huge issue from the standpoint of bench decorum, IMO.

The coaching box rules give you the ability to warn or T somebody who is way over the line in terms of behavior, and should not be used to wield authority over someone who is one step over a physical line on a court, but otherwise behaving quite rationally and respectfully. You should be quicker to T or warn the idiot that is giving you trouble from within the box than to make your points with a coach who is communicating with you in a responsible manner.

If you did want to say something about his approaching you on the court, I wold first answer the question then point out that you would like the next question asked from within his area. If you have a coach who is not giving you trouble, you should want to maitain positive communication rather than have your first statement be something that shuts down communication. It's good game management.

Hawks' Coach -- The elegant wording of this paragraph helps convey the very good philosophy. Of course, you are absolutely right. I just wish all coaches were as verbal and circumspect as you!!

I think stripes knows this principle, but is seeing the various situations described here a little differently than some others who are posting. Also, I've noticed that the language on this board can be an enormous hindrance to our learning, sometimes. If we were all at camp together, I'm not sure we'd all like each other, but it would be easier for us to talk about situations, since we'd at least all see the same physical set-ups. Whether we all NOTICED the same things would of course be another matter...