JV game last night: after a time out Team A did not break the huddle at the second horn and my partner put the ball in play under the resuming play procdure. 4 players from team A immediately ran onto the court and inbounded the ball. The ball is now inbounded and Coach of team A realizes he only has 4 players on the court so he requests a time out and to sub in the 5th player.
There is no technical foul to be assessed for this correct?

I don't see a T.

If you did not notice that there were only 4 players on the court before granting the timeout--then no tec. However, if you did notice that there were only 4 players on the court for one team, then the tec comes before the timeout...it would be a team tec after a timeout.

What?

Had the exact thing happen last night in a Varsity Girls game. Only had 4 return about 15 seconds after the 2nd horn. My partner wouldn't put the ball in play. When I saw only 4, I held my partner up for another 5 seconds and said we needed another player.

About two weeks ago the coach (41 years old, relatively thin and fit) had a heart attack and then triple bypass surgery. A previous coach, (and now Vice Principal, and also our district representative on the State Athletic Board,) has stepped in to help. I'm sure he is frustrated coaching a team that he didn't pick or train.

The team is pitiful - can't pass, can't catch, can't dribble, can't shoot; there are probably some other missing skills too. Their record is 0 and 10 or something close to that. The score at the end of the first quarter was 2-18. The 2 were from free throws - no field goals. They were late from every time out. Were not even on the court when the horn sounded to end half time. 5 seconds later they entered to begin the second half.

Toward the end of the game they (Home) became frustrated and began doing stupid things like slamming the ball, kicking at the other team, coach yelling at the refs. The one technical foul that we did administer was in the 2nd quarter to the Visiting team - one of their players was not in the book. In the second half the Home team seemed to wake up slightly and scored some field goals. They even made it into the 20's but lost by about 30 to a very gracious visiting team that relaxed and took it easy, rather than playing to their potential.

In summary we passed on several T's and it sounds like one should have been assessed for not enough players returning after a timeout? Per NFHS 10-1-9

I've never heard of TECHing a team for too few players.
WHY??



Chuck-see what I mean about the differences from the NCAA rules. Me no understand.

APHP said it with all kinds of confidence. Mine was a question... and I guessed at what might be the applicable rule.

We've been over and over this....
 

...guys please don't call a T in this situation. It's a simple mistake, no advantage is gained and it's not the intent of the rule.

No such rule.

10-1-9 is designed for situations where a player leaves his bench and enters the game after the ball becomes live. Could it be written better to reflect that? Sure, but that doesn't change the intent of it.

APHP
 

Please direct me to the rule that says you call a Technical Foul for this issue.

It can be NFHS, NCAA or NAIA.

Thanks,

There is a technical foul that says that all players must return to the game at the same time. However.... the case book cites an example where a team uses deception to gain an advantage by bringing the 5th player in later and the T is called when the 5th player returns. Hold the T. If the 5th player returns during a live ball, then call the technical.
Z

Re: APHP
 

NCAA: How about

Rule 10-3
Art. 17. Purposely delaying his or her return to the playing court after being legally out of bounds.

or

Rule 10-3
Art. 1. Delay of game. A team shall not delay the game.

or the ever popular

Section 3. Elastic Power
Art. 1. The referee shall be empowered to make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

All of these should be interpreted through

Rule 3-1
Art. 1. At the start of the game, each team shall consist of five players...

and the rules that substitutes actually take the place of someone on the floor, so unless there are fewer than 5 eligible players, a team will always consiste of 5 players.

Both my game and Troward's were High School, NFHS games. Sounds like neither of us issued a T.... correctly.

No attempt at deception here.... just confusion. By itself, confusion is not punishable per rule.

Delay of game could have been used as justification. The stand-in coach is trying to squeek every possible second for coaching his 'new' team and he definitely stepped beyond the reasonable and prudent line. To issue a T would only add insult to his injury. No benefit to this particular game. The visiting coach wasn't screaming for a T or more foul calls or anything. He knew he was going to win probably 5 minutes into the game - when the home team hadn't even engaged yet.

Only 4 players returning, due to confusion and not deception, is not a T-ing offense.

Lotto
 

I seem to fail to understand your references:

1) NCAA 10.3 Art 17 -- the example was not intentional nor did it delay the game. In our evaluator's camp this has always been consider a call that would be made if there was a nerferious reason not simply someone failing to understand that they are in or out of the game.

2) NCAA 10.3 Art 1 -- This is not delaying the game. The offical seems to have put the ball " in play" (right or wrong on the mechanics side).

3) Section 3 -- Elastic Powers. Again, in the evaluation clinics we are taught to review this issue as Baseball Umpires use 9.01 (c) in OBR. It is used with a great amount of care and consideration. While I do agree that an NCAA official can use this with fore thought I doubt if playing with four players "really" is what this section was intended to cover.

4) Rule 3 -- The spirit and intent of this rule is obviously to cover six (or more) players on the court OR a time in the game where a coach could try to gain an advantage by not allowing a player onto the court when he has an eligible player (i.e. a bad free throw shooter in crunch time).

What I would state, with about as strong a voice as possible, is that the OFFICIALS have the responsibility to only begin play when both teams have the correct number of eligible players on the court.

Far before a Technical Foul call I would expect, as a "long time" (that means old) college official and relatively new college evaluator that the whole issue is based aroound poor mechanics rather than a coaching sin.

I would certainly hope that EVEN IF an official put a ball into play with TOO FEW players on the court (too many may be considered differently) that the official would be smart enough and intuitive enough to stop play and correct the oversite. While not a correctable error in the interest of equal play the correction would be made.

Thanks for the situations and your view of the issue. It helped me a lot.

Re: Lotto
 

Tim -

I agree with everything you say.

I wouldn't call a T in this situation. In fact, after counting the players on the court after the teams break their huddle and coming to four, I would give a toot and call for the fifth player to come out onto the floor. Basic preventive (preventative?) officiating.

My post was meant to be a response to the person who asked for a rule reference under which one could justify a T in that situation.

If, for example, after I gave a toot and called for the fifth player to come out onto the floor, they didn't, I might consider a T (based on the rule references I cited) for delay of game. I don't think it's right to put the ball into play when there are only 4 players on the court---it's just asking for more trouble later on when the coach suddenly realizes what's going on and the fifth player runs onto the court. What if that fifth player gets a long cherry picking pass and an easy layup? Now one has a real problem...

-Ben

Re: Re: APHP
 

What about foul outs and injuries and only having four eligible players? Going to T that situation?

Re: Re: Re: APHP
 

No. That situation is dealt with in the next article:

Art. 2. Each team may continue to play with fewer than five players when all other squad members are not eligible or able to play.

Re: 4 players
 

This is what a local supervisor told me. The ball should not be put in play with only 4 on the floor. If the ball becomes live and the 5th player runs on the floor the ball is whistled dead and a T is issued. If the ball is live the 5th player must wait at the scorers table for the next dead ball to enter. This has been said but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in!

I have heard from two or three guys ringing them up for delay. Don't we still issue a warning for delay before wacking them? To jump right to a T and say it was for delay would be a gross mis-application of the rule IMO.

There are only three official warnings for delay (NFHS):

1) Crossing the boundary plane on a throw-in
2) Huddling before a free-throw
3) Interfering with the ball after a made basket.

You can, umm, "discuss" with the coach the need to have everyone return to the court, but you can't Warn (note the initial Cap) them.

Wouldn't huddling, be the same as this? You are preventing the game from continuing?

Bottom line, I don't even know why we would be dicussing a T in this situation.

Brian
 

I agree with you. I would be hard pressed for anyone to convince me that a "T" is within the rules but even the "right thing" to do.

The post above about a supervisor saying that the player "must wait" till he is motioned in is not only wrong but silly.

The ONLY reason the player would need to be beckoned is if he is a substitute that had not been in the game legally. Then one could argue that it is a sub.

If the player had entered during say a time out, then he can come off the bench at any time (barring the old "hanging chad" where we are intentionally hiding on the bench)and be legal.

Even supervisors make dumb statements.

No, it's not the same -- use the resuming of play procedure and the game continues.

If, then 4 players leave the bench and "a while later" the 5th leaves, it's a T. That's clear from the case book.

What isn't clear is what to do if the 5th stays on the bench, or reports to the table. PLay with 4? Issue a T? I vote for the former, absent any "official" ruling.

5th player must wait
 

Ok,

In the case book on 10.1.9 It says "Following a charged timeout Team B is still with their coach on the sideline when the official sounds the whistle to indicate play will resume. 4 players of B return to the court just in time to play defense as A1 attempts and unsuccessfull three pointer. B1 rebounds and throws a long pass to B5 who enters the court just in time to catch the pass. Ruling: A technical foul is immediately charged to Team B for failing to have all players return to the court at approximately the same time following a time-out or intermission."

Also in 10.3.4 is show were the 5th player must wait to be beckoned in. It says.

"After a lengthy substitution process involving multiple substitutions for both Team A and Team B, A5 goes to the bench and remains there, believing he/she has been replaced. The ball is put in play even though Team A has only 4 players on the court. Team A is bringing the ball into A's frontcourt when the coach of Team A realizes they have only four players. The coach yells for A5 to return and A5 sprints directly ono the court without reporting or without being beckoned. Ruling: A Technical foul is charged to A5 for returning during playing action even though A5 had not been replaced."

So I guess my supervisor was right??

Re: 5th player must wait
 

In both of those sitches, the T is issued after a player enters the floor. If they wait until a deadball, and enter legally, I still don't see a sub.

Re: Re: 5th player must wait
 

Right if A5 waits until the ball becomes dead or the coach calls a timeout he can enter with no penalty. I don't inderstand what you mean by "I still don't see a sub" though.

Re: Brian
 

Tim, I disagree with what you said above. According to the rule book all 5 players must return to the floor at about the same time. The 5th player can't sit on the bench for 30 seconds then sprint on the floor.

Okie
 

And I am moving towards your view, HOWEVER, what appears to be an issue is timing.

I guess (fully admitting mistakes is something I try to do if necessary) what I pictured was the proverbial player rushing out after a short section of play.

I will always follow Bob Jenkins interpretations when it comes to FEDlandia (basketball or baseball) because he lives in those sporting worlds.

It is my personal view that a player "hiding" off the court and a player failing to recognize that he should be in the game are two different issues.

I will stand corrected that FED wants the Technical foul for just about any violation of this issue.

I agree
 

I agree that there is a difference between hiding and not knowing. Unfortuantly the "book" doesn't allow for that.

State difference
 

Tim, here is something that I was wanting your opinion on. Marvin Barbee is the State Supervisor for Oklahoma in a meeting with him this year, he made a suggestion that if a team B breaks a huddle with 4 players and he try to put the ball in play. He wanted us to call a T the minute Team A takes possession of the ball for a delay of game. What is your thought on this. I think that it might be a little harsh especially with out a warning first.