Why do organizations differ from the NCAA. There is a multitude of associations that have different rule applications than those of the NCAA. Positions of timeouts, resumption of play after a "T", etc. I have been going to camp and some campers have been "hurt" by the fact that they do not know the NCAA stuff. Their chances of making the college conferences decrease greatly when their knowledge is limited. By reading all these different threads, there must a zillion rules books/manuels. Why is there so many differences? Perhaps there really isn't an answer.


"Inquiring Minds Want To Know"

You are right...there is no answer!

Why NCAA?
 

As a high school official, I ask the question in the other direction:

Why do organizations like the NCAA differ from the NFHS?

I'm not asking this as a serious question -- rather, I'm asking why the NCAA should be held as "the standard?"

Rich

kmref, I guess I'm just curious what the "multitude" is. I'm only familiar with NCAA, Fed, NBA, and FIBA. Almost nobody in the US uses FIBA, and very few people who are trying out for a college conference use NBA rules. So what else are they being confused by? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just wondering what other rule sets you're thinking of.

I don't really think so. I would guess that upwards of 80-85% of the posts on this board relate to NFHS rules. Then there are the others I mentioned above. What makes for vigorous discussion is often what Jeff (Rutledge) calls regional differences. We joke Jeff about this, b/c he uses it as an excuse for times when he's misinterpreted a situation, but those regional differences really do exist to a certain extent. Although 98% of the HS rules are applied the same way throughout the US, many of the mechanics are modified by local or state associations; either explicitly or by unwritten "folklore".

Lastly, if anyone is trying out for a college conference and they don't know NCAA rules and mechanics, then they shouldn't be trying out. They're probably wasting their money. Spend the $20 and get the NCAA rulebook and 3-whistle mechanics manual before you go to camp.

Come on Chuck...it can't be that simple, can it?? :)

Actually, it's even simpler. I'm pretty sure that the rulebook is even online. Not sure about the mechanics manual, tho.

Chuck

Yup...try here!

http://www.ncaa.com/library/rules.html#basketball

Not true Chuck.
 

I cannot speak for your area, but we have officials that do College, Men's and Women's. We have officials that do Pro-AM Leagues. We have officials that do Class A ball and Class AA (Big Schools) ball. And we have officials that work inside the city area and those that work outside of the city area. All these officials have different views on what are important, based on the levels that they do. The Chicago are along has probably 15 to 20 Official's Associations. I know that some South Suburban Associations to do not have the same focus on the rules as the City Associations. You would be surprise the different discussion officials have on rules that are very specific in the rulebook, based on their individual experiences. And if anyone thinks that the NF Rules are applied even 98% percent across the board, you are fooling yourself. First of all, states have their own rules and mechanics. Just my state alone has had specifically taught mechanics that were not in the NF Mechanics or Rulebooks. The NF is a guide, not the law for everyone. And just like in NCAA, depending on the conference, the assignor might want certain things done while doing their games. Why do you think the NF makes all these POEs and Rule revisions every year? It is not because there is complete understanding of the NF "Spirit of the Rules." If everything the NF was being applied they way they would like, they would just have a Rulebook and Mechanics Book and not add anything else.

I just this past weekend and a game with an Iowa team and an Illinois team. And before that game I had to explain somethings and the coaches did say to me in both the JV game and varsity game, "we do not do that in Iowa." Iowa uses NF Rules. So why do they not do that in Iowa? You think the officials or the state might have some different practices?

Peace

Jeff, what were the things they don't do in Iowa that you had to discuss? I suppose you played by the home team rules and did not make up a hybrid set for this individual game?

Here they are.
 

<b>Coaching box rule</b>. Illinois uses the extended coaching box rule, Iowa does not.

<b>Subbing a disqualified player</b>. Illinois has to have a player subbed in <b>immediately</b>, not within 30 seconds. This is actually an experimental rule from the NF, that we have been using since last year.

<b>Pregame situations</b> Iowa does not allow a team to circle the court with the other team on the court. In Illinois this has always been acceptable and allowed as long as they do not abstruct their opponents from their warmup drills. Even this year that put in this "neutral zone" in many cases there are still things done that might violate that rule that the NF put into place. But in the eyes of some and what has not been made clear to all, sometimes the neutral zone is violated, but not because of taunting. But this one has sparked some debate.

<b>Jump Ball</b> Girls Basketball in Iowa does a coin flip in place of a Jump Ball. Of course in Illinois, we do not do this.

These are just some of the differences, the practices would make this list larger. But these are things that an Iowa school would have to deal with when playing in Illinois. I also know officials that work in Missouri, Indiana and Wisconsin. Everything that they do in those states to not always mirror IHSA Regulations or Rules according to the officials that work in those states. And all these states do use the NF Rulebook.

Peace

I'd hazard a guess that at least 50% of the rules are written exactly the same (perhaps different numbering), and 75-80% of the rules have basically the same intent/underlying philosophy (travelling, 3 seconds, backcourt, the like are the same under both rules).

Where the difference comes is mainly in administrative rules. POI for technicals in NCAA, division line, size of the court, to whom an indirect technical is assessed, where everyone can stand on FT's, number and length of timeouts, etc.

Granted, different places have different philosophies on what to call and when (defender drawing a PC under the basket comes to mind), but what the written rule is doesn't vary a whole lot. If you want to learn them - there's a handy table in the NF and NCAA book giving all the important differences. There are definately fewer differences in basketball than in football!

Chuck, Isn't CCA different? also I know that NCAA men's and women's are different, arent' they?
We don't discuss the WNBA here much, except during their season, but I think their set up is all different too. And we sometimes mention IAABO here, although I'm confused about how that works. Is it a different set of rules? or just a professional organization?

And of course, all the regional difference, and then we do discuss the various rec leagues differences.

Heck, now, I"M confused, too!

Re: Not true Chuck.
 

Jeff, just so I'm clear, what exactly am I wrong about? You concur with almost everything I said in my post. I acknowledged the different rule-sets (NCAA, NF, NBA, FIBA), you mentioned college, high school, and Pro-Am leagues. So far, so good.

I mentioned that the regional difference are widespread as far as mechanics go. You said,
I think we still agree. I said that roughly 98% of the rules in the Fed rulebook are consistent across the country. You said

You then listed exactly four cases where the rules varied from your state. So basically, I overstated the percentage? I suppose that is certainly possible, and I apologize if I misled anyone :rolleyes: , but I think my point is still valid. The vast majority of Fed rules are applied the same way across the country. The majority of "regional differences" are found in our mechanics.

Chuck

You've got a point, Juulie. Some of the NCAA rules and interpretations differ for men and women. For the purposes of my post, I lumped men's and women's together in the NCAA and also in the NBA.

As far as IAABO, CBOA and CCA go, they are simply officials' organizations. They do not make or modify the rules. They simply provide services to officials. The "Fed" rules are written and published by the NFHS, which as far as I know is not affiliated with IAABO.

Chuck

Rule applications don't exist for the purpose of allowing officials to move up into the college ranks. Each organization is entitled to establish their own rules, mechanics, and interpretations.

I would ask the question, why would organizations do things like the NCAA does? How would it benefit them to do so? It might benefit an official in this situation, but once again, that's not the purpose of these organizations.

Chuck,

I'd say that it's more like 99% of the NFHS rules are applied the same. In Jeff's list, he cites an experimental rule and also one where it sounds like he's confused as to how to handle it (the players doing the "circle the wagons" routine) even thought NFHS has made that very clear EXACTLY how they want it handled. Coaching boxes are an option specifically allowed by NFHS. So basically the coin flip is the only "real difference" (that certainly is a weird one isn't it?) and I have yet to hear a difference in regards to handling "during the game situations" although Jeff claims that he ignores the rule where we're required to notify coaches when they use their last time out (sounds like that's a personal problem rather than regional).


Z

Re: Re: Not true Chuck.
 

This is how you are wrong. You are assuming that all rules are applied the same, just because we have the NF Rulebook. We all can agree that 3 seconds is in the rulebook on many levels. The reality on how it is practices is based on who and what you are officiating. It even comes down to who you work for. When we talked about my attitude about telling teams of their timeout status, I was ripped apart by those that try to use the rulebook as their proving what is right and wrong as it relates to the rule. But the reality, I do not work for or with all those folks that took a differnet stand than I did. They are not the officials or administrators that give us games in a conference or give us playoff games. I can give you many of examples of different conferences that have different rules they would like us to not make such a big deal about and those that want them called to the letter of the law.

There was an assignor last year that told the officials that work in his conference to not call a T for bookeeping before games in an open meeting. Well I guess someone called him on it and called the state or contacted the state to take issue with that application. He later came back and said he was wrong for telling officials that worked in his conference that, but still encouraged the same practice in the same breath. Now if you had to work fo this man, you tell me what an official might have to do? Now this is a rule and was clearly said, "if you work in this conference, this is how we are going to do it." Now if that is not a rule difference or application based on where you live or officiate, I sure do not know what is?

Peace

Show me a quote.
 

When did I say that? You have a quote with me saying I ignore a rule? Or do you have a quote were I called the application of a rule being a "courtesy" in the way I apply it?

When the 20 second timeout rule was put in, it was widely taught to do the now approved 60 second signal in the State of Illinois. As a matter of fact, the year before this mechanic was approved by the NF, the IHSA used it the year before as experimental rule. The years before it was an experimental rule, officials were doing this based on the college influences in my state. Many Clinican were in IHSA Camps were teaching something that was not a NF Mechanic or an IHSA Mechanic or rule. On long switches the IHSA still wants us to go opposite the table on all foul calls, backcourt or front court. This is not a NF Mechanic. This is not a NF Rule.

I have heard many officials on all boards, in meetings and during pregames say, "I will never call 3 seconds, I will never call a travel during a varsity game and I will never call a T before a game starts," but I never see anyone talk about what rules they ignore. I did not realize that the NF all came in like the Goverenment and made rules that we can or have not broken or apply in different ways. :rolleyes:

Peace

<i> He later came back and said he was wrong for telling officials that worked in his conference that, but still
encouraged the same practice in the same breath. Now if you had to work fo this man, you tell me what an official might have to do?</i>

I'd call it like the NFHS wanted. If I even had the slightest notion that the assignor (who thinks he is above the NFHS), was holding that against me, I'd inform the NFHS. No sweat.

<i> I have heard many officials on all boards, in meetings and during pregames say, "I will never call 3 seconds, I will never call a travel during a varsity game and I will never call a T before a game starts.</i>

I think you misinterpret things. I've heard refs say they'll only call 3 seconds as an advantage/disadvantage call. Adv/Dis is in the NFHS rule book so that's consistent. I've never heard a ref say that wouldn't call a travel in a varsity game. That's ridiculous. They wouldn't get any games around here if that was their attitude. I will never call a scorebook administrative T before a game...but that's because I get to the table at 12:00 and have 2 minutes to fix any problems before the game starts. I think you're using selective hearing.

Z

I do not expect a serious answer from you, because of what this is really about.
 

Good for you. But I do not work for the NF. When I start working for the NF or anything I do with the NF directly, I will take that attitude. I pay dues to the IHSA, not the NF. And even the IHSA is trying to make sure that they separate themselves from the things we do directly as an official, because they want to uphold the Independent Contractor status. When the NF has a National Tournament that I can officiate, I will be stirctly concerned with everything the NF stands for. Until then, I and many official (especially when they admit it) are going to be much more concerned with the Official's Associations, fellow official think over what the NF puts on paper.


Advantage/Disadvantage is in the rulebook based on contact, not violations. If I am wrong, show me the passage and I will concede that point all together. BTW, the term Advantage/Disadvantage is not even the terminology of the rulebook. It is implied by the Tower Principle and other rules people, but not at all the verbage of the rulebook.

I agree it is ridiculous, but I have heard it. I did not say the level of the individuals that said it or the type of officials that made that comment, but we cannot just talk about officials that are just at the top and doing varsity games. I am sure they heard that from somewhere and maybe just repeated it.

I am at the table before you are, so I really do not see the point that makes.

The point is here that you make these general statement, then you repeat them enough so that you believe them after awhile. Of course it is selective hearing on my part, it does not go along with your orginal statement. You cannot prove that there are not "regional" applications but saying that 99% of the NF are applied. I guess that was based on a scientific study you did across the country or within states to confirm that percentile?

Obviously there must be some regional factors or regional practices, because if that was not the case, why put traveling in the POEs if everyone across the country is applying the rule properly? All they did in the POE on traveling was take the language straight out the rulebook and put it in that section. It is a rule, why did they have to do that? Why change the "elbow" rule from a T to a violation? I will admit that I "ignored" the rule calling swinging elbows, mainly because I called it once and you would have thought my skin turned white after I did it. Then was told, "do not call that" after the game. And there are many rules or mechanics that the IHSA wanted us to enforce, but the officials that do not enforce them, still recieved playoff games and still advanced far in the playoffs. That is changing a bit, but do not tell me with a straight face that there are no "regional" factors, when I had to adjust when I moved within my own state from the Western part of Illinios, to a Western Suburb of Chicago. Or better yet, what about those officials that move from one state to another and find that what they did back home does not work here now?

Peace

In my HO, i think the advantage/disadvantage concept with respect to contact had a lot to do with the physical aspect of basketball that the pros, college and hs seem to keep saying to clean up in their POE. When did this concept come into basketball officiating talk?

I do not recall reading that concept this year but have heard at least one official use it this year when we were discussing a play in a game.

Good players can play great defense with none to very light contact (fly weight contact) if they know that this is what is expected.

I have seen college games where there is a lot of contact where no shot is occuring or a bump out a mid court or of a player near an OOB line and the slight contact causes him to go out of bounds and nothing is called but when a player shoots and is touched with the weight of a fly or a slight bump the whistle 99.9% of the time goes off. That to me is a bunch of crap. What changed here to call a foul where earlier there was greater contact with no shot and no call. Seems like a double standard to me.

I have the perception that in the late 70's many fouls were called that are ignored today.

<i>Advantage/Disadvantage is in the rulebook based on contact, not violations. If I am wrong, show me the passage and I will concede that point all together. BTW, the term Advantage/Disadvantage is not even the terminology of the rulebook.</i>

Wrong as usual Rut.
From the "Intent and Purpose" section of the NFHS Rules book: <b>"A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."</b> Since the 3-in-the-key rule was put in to prevent Lew Alcindor from posting up next to the basket and getting the ball for an easy slam dunk, the intent of that rule is pretty easy to figure for most officials.

Z

Rule applications don't exist for the purpose of allowing officials to move up into the college ranks. Each organization is entitled to establish their own rules, mechanics, and interpretations.

I would ask the question, why would organizations do things like the NCAA does? How would it benefit them to do so? It might benefit an official in this situation, but once again, that's not the purpose of these organizations. [/B][/QUOTE]


Own rules? Own Mechanics? Different Interpretations??

I think when J. Naismith created the game he meant for everyone to play it the same. The game itself has evolved and the rules along with it. The game is intended to be standard across the board.

The NCAA is the next logical step for most players, coaches, and officials. Don't a majority of these strive to compete at the next level? Imposing a standard(NCAA RULES)facilitates everyone becoming eligible to have the knowledge to perform at the next level. Athletes that travel to play teams outside of their area need to be able to play at a standard level. Officials need to call the game by the same set of standards. When officials differ, this should only be due to a difference in judgement not in rules applications, mechanics, etc.

Obviously, no matter what, all officials are striving to do the job to the best of their abilities. (Hopefully)

Interesting discussion...last season, I travelled to Indiana to work an NCAA tournament...I live in Washington State, and the other officials there were fron Boston, New York (upstate somewhere), Texas, and Arkansas...we had absolutely no problems reffing together, and - other than some strange accents - you couldn't tell from the stands that there were any differences in the way we covered the court, what we called or didn't call, etc...maybe there are some problems with the Fed side of things, but there sure weren't any "regional" differences there...

RR-that's the beauty of NCAA. Could you have done the same with the different Fed stuff? I think you hit the nail on the head. The only difference was the way they talked not the way they officiated. I think that's the way it needs to be. Congrats on going to the NCAA Tourney. Who played? What level? How far was the trip?

Very interested to hear stories of NCAA Tournament Stuff.

That is not apart of the rules z.
 

:rolleyes:


I guess that said all violations should be considered based on advantage/disadvantage principles? I guess that is under Rule 11? No Z, with every rule there is intent and a purpose, but advantage/disadvantage is only covered in the <b>actual rules</b> under Rule 4-27. You might want to believe that, but I do not see under the POEs this year, "only call traveling when there is an advantage gained." When I see that passage, I will believe you. Better yet, when they ask a question on your beloved test, I will really believe you. But they do not ask question on the test that come before or after Rule 1 and Rule 10. When they do, ask a test question about who the Publisher and Editor are, I will believe you.

Peace

Rut,

You asked me to show you where it said that in the rulebook and you'd concede the point. I did. You said the terms advantage and disadvantage weren't in the rule book. I quoted word-for-word to show you that they are. Now you're off on some other tangent and saying that those words aren't in the actual rules of the rulebook. Pathetic actually.

Z

If you want to look at it that way.
 

Z,

Anyone that disagrees with you, is pathetic in your eyes. :rolleyes: I know of several officials, posters and coaches that would completely disagree with your statement as it relates to violations. I do not see any passage in Rule 9 stating about advantage/disadvantage. But as I said, when they ask a Part 1 question about this passage, I will change my mind.

Peace

Re: If you want to look at it that way.
 

Will you really change your mind when they ask a Part 1 question? or will you just come up with another excuse or another "made up" reason why the NFHS rules are incorrect and the RUT rules are right?

I think you've completely missed the point - rules differences DO NOT EXIST (for the most part), but there are substantial MECHANICS differences that exist.

I've called high school basketball in Maryland, Penn, and now Texas, and the only things I had to figure out were the MECHANICAL differences. All three states play by the same set of RULES for HS games.

Rockyroad - congrats on that assignment. that didn't happen to be the D-III women's nationals did it?

Yes it was...and no, he (Rut) won't...

I'm friends with Darci and know Todd...the way you described the crews it sounded a little too familiar. In addition, I work at Trinity in San Antonio and our women's coach was on-site and responsible for evaluating all the crews. Just thought I'd pass this along...she told me that all the games were called great and all the crews were extremely professional.

Again, congrats!
Jake

Thank you...Todd and Darci - and all the others - are great people, and it was an honor to get to know them... I met the coach at the pre-tourny meeting...thanks for passing along the info...it was a lot of fun there...

Re: Re: If you want to look at it that way.
 

No, that is what they call sarcasm.

<b>Did you say for the most part?</b> Then there were different rules applications between these states? Or are you saying that that each state had to change what was in the NF Rulebook directly in order to make that clear for you? So I guess when Iowa decides to do a coin flip at the beginning of girls games, that is not a rule change? Or is a rules difference only what you say they are? Because someone told me that the rules allowed for officials to wear belted pants, but if you live around me and in the area I live, I guess you can wear them, but you might stand out and not be precieved very well. Is that a rule, or is that a mechanic or just a "regional practice?" I just want to know, some like to say everything is a rule, even when it has no bearing on the game.

I also do not know if your state told you to allow insulin pumps, religious clothing and religious headwear, regardless of NF Rules. The IHSA told us to allow them and the NF rulebook says nothing about allowing insulin pumps, sweats, headgear not specifically stated in the rulebook and to allow Jewish headgear with pins? Did your state tell you to do that? How many schools all over the country have entirely Jewish communities? Well we have several and we were specifically instructed by the State thru our personal websites, not to use NF Rules as it relates to these specific religious clothing. Funny, the only thing the NF allows as it relates to religious clothes or markings is a necklace, taped to a jersey. I have never read anything about wearing a Yameca(sp?). Or a Muslim player wearing her head dress while playing a game or during warmups. Maybe you know something I do not about all the rules differences.

Good examples. I have never worked in any of those states. Nor have I ever talked face to face with officials that work in those states. But I have worked with and been around officials that work in Wisconsin, Iowa, Indiana and Missouri. There are not many, but there are some rules difference on what they feel is unsportsmanlike that results in a T or what they do before the game. Just because they do not list them in the NF Rulebook, does not mean it is not a rule they have to follow. But you would know.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: If you want to look at it that way.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge Rut -

What one official "feels is unsportsmanlike" will certainly differ from that of another official. What the rule book says, however, is pretty simple.

Interpretations certainly differ from region to region, but the rules are the rules. E.g., your assignor might tell you not to call 3-seconds, but that doesn't mean that it's not still a rule. All that means is your assignor has decided to ignore a rule that is clearly in place.

Your association also may have some ADDITIONAL rules in place to deal with certain religious situations, but that doesn't have anything to do with what you do or do not call on the court.

A three-point attempt still must originate behind the three-point line (unless of course your assignor tells you that if a shooter has his/her foot on the line you will call that a 3-pointer in that league). Hey, my assignor said to do it, I don't care if it's right for the game or right for the kids, that's what I'm going to do.

On a side note...have you ever admitted to a coach that you kicked a call? have you ever told a coach, "You may be right"? have you ever asked a partner at half-time about a particularly tough call you had?

just curious.

humbly ready to learn from RUT the master ref,
jt

Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to look at it that way.
 

This is not about what the NF wants. The NF has it's rules, our state has their own as it relates to what the NF wants. And our State goes a bit further than the NF does, who cares what the NF wants. I have license in the State of Illinois, not for the NF. ;)

Now that cannot happen can it? I thought you told me that I ignored rules based on <b>my own way of thinking?</b> Now you are telling me that an assignor can tell official's to ignore rules? I guess that makes sense.

<b>This is not based on an association.</b> This was information give directly from the <b>Illinois High School Association.</b> They players even had letters directly from the <b>State of Illinois</b> allowing them to wear religious material that is not stated in the NF Rulebook. As a matter of fact, the NF is very explicit in not allowing any <b>Head decorations and headwear.</b> Read Rule 5-2. I guess the State of Illinois decided to ignore the NF and their rules.


Well Iowa has not Jump Ball, but a coin flip. I guess they do not have the right to come up with their own start of a basketball game?

Why don't you read every single post I have ever made? You seem to know everything else about me, you tell me if what have done throughtout my entire career. You seem to know all my philosophies or my application of rules. Better yet, why don't I just brag about my test scores for the past 5 years. That might prove what kind of official I am since test score are how assignors give us games. You tell me? You are all knowing because you worked in Maryland and especially Texas. :rolleyes: I have a better question, how many D1 players are from those two states as compared to mine?

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: If you want to look at it that way.
 

i have read about 500 posts from you. most of which involve telling other people why they are wrong and why you are right. which is why i asked those questions to you at the end of my last post. since you refuse to answer those questions, my only assumption can be that the answer to all those questions is no.

as for your question regarding number of d-I players from MD and TX compared to IL...well, i guess i don't really care enough about the answer to begin to research it.

my last post on the subject,
jt

By George, I think he has got it.
 

I do not care what you or others do. You have to find your own way in officiating. You must not read very well, because if you had, I always talk about what we do in my State. I always make that point so that no a single person can say there is only one way (I see you did not pick up on it). No matter what we talk about, there is always more than one route to the mountain top. You have to choose your way. ;)

That is the smartest thing you have said to date. But you are the expert on what every state does as it relates to the rules, I thought you would know how many D1 players we officiate in our area. ;)

Thank you Lord Jesus!!!! :D

Peace

Re: Here we go again!
 

This was information give directly from the <b>Illinois High School Association.</b> They players even had letters directly from the <b>State of Illinois</b> allowing them to wear religious material that is not stated in the NF Rulebook. As a matter of fact, the NF is very explicit in not allowing any <b>Head decorations and headwear.</b> Read Rule 5-2. I guess the State of Illinois decided to ignore the NF and their rules.

[/B][/QUOTE]The applicable NFHS rule is R3-5-2. Exception 1 of that rule specifically states that "State associations may on an individual basis allow a player to participate while wearing a head covering if it meets the following criteria:" Section(b) states that a state association may approve headwear for religious reasons. The IHSAA has followed the explicit instructions contained in this RULE!

Your above statement that this is not stated in the NF rulebook and the NF will not allow headwear is completely wrong!

Btw, R5-2 has to do with scoring.

On, now you've done it JR...now Rut's gonna take his ball and go home! Oh well...can I buy you a brownpop now???

Rocky,do you think I should give him the bad news that "sweats" are also covered in the rulebook,contrary to another of his preceding posts saying that there's also no rule covering them?:D That must be a surprise to whoever wrote casebook play 3.5.5SitB.

I have a proposition for you.
 

When I move to Washington or Western Austrailia, I will do what you think is right and wrong as it relates to NF Rules and Rules making process. ;)

Peace

When was it put in the Casebook?
 

Oh, JR, this was a rather new play in the casebook. Our Executive Director is on the NF Basketball Committee. This was an issue before this year It would not surprise me that this is in the rulebook. Ya think this might have been discussed in their meeting? Ya think that the Editor that comes from our state, might have had a conversation about this situation with people or executives from our state? I will let you tell me. :rolleyes:

I do not see a play specifically stated about an insulin pump, but I am sure you will find one.

Peace

Re: When was it put in the Casebook?
 

Oh, JR, this was a rather new play in the casebook. Our Executive Director is on the NF Basketball Committee. This was an issue before this year It would not surprise me that this is in the rulebook. Ya think this might have been discussed in their meeting? Ya think that the Editor that comes from our state, might have had a conversation about this situation with people or executives from our state? I will let you tell me. :rolleyes:

I do not see a play specifically stated about an insulin pump, but I am sure you will find one.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]I will be glad to tell you. Your specific quote above is "The IHSA told us to allow them and the NF rulebook says nothing about allowing insulin pumps,sweats....". That quote is as wrong as your other quotes about religious headgear not being covered either.It is obvious that there ARE rules covering these things.It is also obvious that you were not aware of those rules.

Btw,insulin pumps are covered by the first sentence of R3-5 and the 3 criteria used in casebook play 3.5SitA.

Re: I have a proposition for you.
 

No you wouldn't...you would still make dumb-a** excuses for the things you screw-up on...and JR, it's still only ONE brown-pop, no matter how many times you prove him wrong...you gotta drive home afterwards, you know...

Re: Re: I have a proposition for you.
 

I'm waiting for Oz to come in now and give him the bad news that western Australia uses FIBA rules and not NF rules.:D

Re: Re: When was it put in the Casebook?
 

As I have stated before, the rules or mandates from the NF were not the issue in this case. I would assume that the NF wanted sweats or pants that covered the other requirements based on other rules situation. The player in question, wore gray shorts with a white and red uniform. Not in compliance to NF Rules. Or at least that is what you can assume according to the rulebook and casebook.

Also, insulin pumps are not specifically covered and the IHSA sent a message to all Licensed Officials saying that how they wanted this implemented. They did not use rule language to support their position, but did say how they wanted us to allow this.

And the point still remains, States can, will and have come up with situations that need to be addressed outside of what the NF wants. Even the NF gives officials a rule to rule on things not specifically covered in the rule. If a state wants to change something or require that certain practices are to be adopted, I do not see much the NF can do about it. That is why they make rulebooks and casebooks every year, the game is changing and the situations change to produce more and more challenges. If all these things you state were so clear, there would be no need to make it clearer to their official. Obviously most of us are not going to face these situations, but someone contacted the IHSA to get some uniformity that the NF could not or did not have in place.

Peace

Re: Re: I have a proposition for you.
 

Thank you Miss Cleo for reading minds. I will be sure to give you that $8.99 a minute for your advice. And if you moved here, you would have to change, or sit in the stands. Maybe you do that already? ;)

Peace

So, you're a friend of Mr. Naismith's and know this for a fact? Mr. Naismith couldn't possibly known how bif this game would become.

BTW, name one sport where there's only one set of rules that govern all levels of play.

Quote:

The NCAA is the next logical step for most players, coaches, and officials. Don't a majority of these strive to compete at the next level?

No, they don't. Over 95% of the kids who play high school basketball will never play college basketball. Even fewer high school officials will ever work a college game.

Quote:

Imposing a standard(NCAA RULES)facilitates everyone becoming eligible to have the knowledge to perform at the next level. Athletes that travel to play teams outside of their area need to be able to play at a standard level. Officials need to call the game by the same set of standards. When officials differ, this should only be due to a difference in judgement not in rules applications, mechanics, etc.

Nah, not even close. Rules are, in most cases, are written with the age, experience, and skill level of the players who play the game. Do we want 7th graders playing by NBA rules or high school kids playing by NFL rules. No, we don't. There's a reason for these things. Don't be so narrow midned as to think eveyone must play by the same rules.

Quote:

Officials need to call the game by the same set of standards. When officials differ, this should only be due to a difference in judgement not in rules applications, mechanics, etc.

I agree, based on the same set of rules. But you're never going to get everyone to play basketball or any other sport by one universal set of rules. It's not going to and it doesn't need to happen.

As I have stated before, the rules or mandates from the NF were not the issue in this case.[/B][/QUOTE]"I see that Cleopatra wasn't the only Queen of Denial"--the Church Lady.:D

Z, he's been doing the same stupid**** for several years. Nothing changes. He wouldn't know a rulebook if it fell outta the sky, landed on his face and started to wiggle on his nose. Corner him and he'll always refuse to answer because it will prove that's he was wrong or that he doesn't know the answer.

Does anyone remember the thread from several months back with Ruts Rules in it? Anyone have a link to that thread?

JR, do you think that Geoffrey could be....hmmmm....SATAN!? http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/devil_2.gif

Stay in North Carolina
 

I got a 97 on a close book test taking the Part 2. I also received a 98 on the Part 1, before I went over it with other official. I got a 95 two years ago on the Part 2, the last time I took it. I do not have anything to prove to you or Z. That is why many of you are still doing 2 man for most of your games. But I have to prove to some fools what I know. That will be the day.

Peace

Re: Stay in North Carolina
 

So the fact that you got a 97 or 98 is linked how to 3 man versus 2 man?

But I have to prove to some fools what I know. That will be the day.[/B][/QUOTE]Now we finally agree!:D

Re: Re: Re: I have a proposition for you.
 

Oh my God...is that the best you could come up with???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

BTW, name one sport where there's only one set of rules that govern all levels of play.

Swimming if you count as rules the requirements of how a stroke is to be performed and how a turn must take place.

my associations trains for ncaa and nf!
 

hello,
here in virginia we are trained in federation and ncaa rules interpretation at least one of the associations im affilated with does this, we do a lot of military basketball and they use ncaa rules. i love it because one night you are doing federation and the next night you are doing ncaa, which i love, it keeps you on your feet and you stay sharp and alert.

NO! You did not go there!
 

What has that got to do with anything? Who cares how anyone does on a test? Scoring high on a test does not make you a good official!!! You're so fullof****!! :D

Quote:

I do not have anything to prove to you or Z. That is why many of you are still doing 2 man for most of your games. But I have to prove to some fools what I know. That will be the day.

What has 2 man vs. 3 man got to do witth anything in this thread? :confused:

I guess since I work nothing but 3 man, I've reached the pinnacle of success! Good grief, that is so stupid. :rolleyes:

You've already proved to us what you know, even if you never post another word.

Hell, if working 3-man makes you a good official, I must also be at my peak.

In my second year of officiating.

Still doing IM ball . . .

Its a good thing
 

...that we are all non-judgemental here.

I just re-read this thread, from start to finish, and feel like I am back in middle school. Are we at "triple dog dare ya", yet? :D (Don't ya just love the classic movie "A Christmas Story"?)

It appears that not everyone is checking the ego at the door.... :(

Re: Its a good thing
 

I loved that movie. Maybe Tony was the kid that put is tongue on the light post. I am sorry, I am doing it again. :p But it is so much fun seeing Tony curse me out. I wonder what he does when a coach gives him crap?

Peace

Geoffrey Scrooge
 

Coaches don't give me crap. :)

And if I ever curse you out, you'll know it. :p

Re: Geoffrey Scrooge
 

I quadruple dog dare ya!!!!

Just like the Christmas Story, your Mother needs to put the bar of soap in your mouth.

Peace

Re: Re: Geoffrey Scrooge
 

Exploding Geoffrey head sequence begins in...

3!.....2!.....1!..... http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/splat.gif

Next time I am going to think twice...no three times before I post a question. I am simply trying to understand and get more knowledge about this game that I love. If this causes my fellow officials to react in this manner, then...whoa! As I'm reading this thread the blood pressure sky-rocketed with each page. Step back, evaluate, and slow down. I was just wondering.

"Can't we all just get along?" Remember it is the Holiday Season...a time to be sensitive to others' feelings, remembering what this season is all about, and for some a time to work yourselves right into a frenzy!!

Happy Holidays to all and to all a great reffing night :)

Intended by whom? Lots and lots of high school players have no aspirations to play NCAA ball. They enjoy playing in their own local settings, with their friends and family cheering them on. The rules as NCAA are different from the Fed rules, because there aren't the same people playing. By your logic, all colleges should play by NBA rules, since that is where college players are hoping to end up. But the NBA rules are aimed at a different goal than the college rules. Most people don't find the NCAA game boring, and don't need the whiz-bang defense-challenged NBA stuff to have a great evening.

High school ball doesn't get played on a national level, so the rules don't need to be completely standard. This is different from the kind of ball RockRoad did last spring. In the college leagues, a national tournament is the end result and thus the rules need to be more uniform across the country. The Federation (good grief, that sounds too Sci-Fi!) allows state variations, becuase they recognize that state level is the highest competition that these teams will play. What's wrong with that?!?!

PERFECT!!!

That's what I was asking. I just want to hear another opinion or see the flip side of the coin. All your points were very insightful. Constructive communication works so well. Thanks for another view, rainmaker.

Tell that to ESPN...(hee hee hee)