I worked with a 20 year vet last weekend in a 2-man game. This guy is very fussy about not calling his area. While I was lead White takes a shot that rebounds high off the rim and over the backboard without touching it. It cleared the board on my side, but probably only passed over the last eight inches or so. The ball came down to the side of the board, but between it and the endline where White obtained the rebound.
My partner did not blow the whistle. My question for all is would you?

No way, regardless of the experience of my partner. As lead, I shouldn't even have seen what was happening up there. It's your partner's call. Let him deal with the implications. If it was as close to the side of the board as you stated, I doubt that there was much fuss from anyone.

Ouch,,,
 

If you stick "by the book" it is not your call. It is the trail's area. I guess I would keep my focus on the players below the rim and their positioning for the "alleged" rebound.

Sounds like....
 

....some of the people I've worked with.

They judge success based on the number of double-whistles they have on the floor.

There are a lot of times when players are near the line dividing the court responsibilities and when both officials see a foul. What is wrong with both whistles as long as the right official (pregamed usually as the official in the direction the players are heading) takes the foul to the table as the other official drops his fist?

Another instance where I see double whistles is when a player drives the lane. While this is the lead's primary area, the trail may have a better angle on contact out front -- especially if the drive starts from the trail's side of the court. Since most of the off-ball activity is going to be in that area anyway, the trail's eyes are there.

Are we just supposed to ignore legitimate fouls based on lines drawn on the court?

I stress being a good off-ball official during my pregames, especially working with a new partner, but there are simply times where we need to work as a team and help each other out. If I miss something blatant, I'm not going to get upset when my partner bails me out. I may even thank him.

The only time I get angry is when I make a conscious advantage/disadvantage decision to not call a foul (for example -- a bump in the back on a rebound where the player in position clears the rebound) and my partner makes a long distance call. That happened last week when the two players were about eight feet from me and my partner was at least 40 feet away. The discussion at halftime was cordial, and I made it clear that I wasn't upset that he called a foul (new guys seem hesitant to blow the whistle, so I don't want a partner to be afraid to call fouls), but rather to consider the advantage/disadvantage and to hold his whistle for a bit. OK, so I did mention that I was right there, but I'm only human....

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Dec 18th, 2002 at 08:30 AM]

Rich...

I agree, get the call right. A good pregame is essential, but as NEVADA stated this 20 yr vet did NOT appear to have that as a "primary" (pun intended) concern.

[Edited by williebfree on Dec 18th, 2002 at 09:10 AM]

Calling out of your primary
 

Nevadaref:
During the pre game I always discuss calling in your primary zone. However we want to always get the call right. I always tell my partner that if you see an elephant in my area call it otherwise must we trust each other that if I pass on a call in my primary I made that decision based on being where I need to be. It's OK to be fussy about this issue but I believe all great officials leave their ego in the locker room.
Rich F:
All great points!
Members:
In your pregame do you discuss how to handle the pass/crash coverage situations. I be interested in opinions on this.

One would think that we are there to get the call correct for the benefit of the kids who are playing. I agree with Rich and would hope that the response would be:
But having worked with this official before, I knew his response would be:
But since the ball took forever to come down, I began wondering where it was and glanced up. So I did see it.
However, since I had a long ride home with this guy and didn't want to deal with this discussion, I just let them play on and he kept his 20-year vet, I'm-a-great-ref (even though I missed the ball going over the board) ego intact.

Lastly, let me add that this happened in the third quarter of a game with Red leading by 8. If it had happened with 30 seconds left in a very close ballgame, I'm calling this from the lead and he can deal with it.

-pregamed usually as the official in the direction the players are heading-

Our association teaches the opposite. We call primary as where the players came FROM, not heading. I had a partner two nites ago who was from another state and he asked if we called from where the player came from or from where he is going. The three camps I went to this summer said that the official where the play originated was the primary, if the play went into another coverage area, that official needed to wait a tick to see if the "primary" was going to call anything, then hit their whistle.

to and from
 

The theory here is that the official whose primary the ball is coming from will see the whole play and not just the tail end. Therefore, this official would have more information upon which to base a call.

Don't get me wrong, ladies and gentleman. I'm not a "you'd better not call in my area" ref. In this specific situation, however, there is no way lead should take this call. If lead is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air and trail is looking at a ball 14 feet in the air, who's looking at the 10 players vying for a rebound. I'd be a lot more concerned about missing a possible violent foul on the rebound than an out of bounds violation.

From the way the play was described, this wasn't an "Oh, My God. How did they miss that" play.

Re: Calling out of your primary
 

Lead stays with pass, Trail takes the crash.

Chuck

That probably is the current mechanic. I know it is the three man mechanic, where areas can overlap.

It makes sense, too. That way the trail can "release" the player once it makes sense for the lead to call the foul.

It's been years since I've been to a camp, so any recent teachings are appreciated by this newly-returned-to-the-game-"vet".

But again, why do some officials make the "double whistle" the unpardonable sin of officiating basketball as long as only one official actually "calls" the foul? It seems that this attitude, while emphasizing off-ball coverage, drives a stake through the "team" aspect we all strive for.

Just trying to understand,

Rich

I digressed -- but I agree on the play
 

I agree with Barry regarding this specific play. I generalized -- perhaps too quickly.

I don't know why officials look up at a shot when working lead. It's far more entertaining watching the players trying to get rebounding position. And occasionally you catch something important, too. :)

Rich

Chuck,

The members of my association tend to work the pass/crash mechanic opposite of what you have said - "If you've got the a$$, you've got the pass." This generally leaves the Lead to make the crash call - we justify this principle by saying that the Lead has a better view of whether the defender is properly set or moving laterally into the path of the passer.

Will you explain your reasoning for
It makes some good sense in that the pass is generally deeper into the Lead's primary area. Please expand.

In all honesty I don't know that we are regimented enough to really stick with the stated mechanic - it does however have a nice rhyming pattern that we enjoy saying.

I don't know if I have the "official" explanation, but I'll give you why I think it's a good mechanic. Two reasons:

1)These awkward pass/crash situations usually happen in transition. Especially in transition, the Trail official is more likely to be watching the ballhandler and primary defender. The Lead is probably farther from the spot of the impending crash, and is hopefully watching play away from the ball. So to expect the Lead official to officiate off-the-ball and then have a call on a crash that's not in his primary is going to yield a guess at best. Since the Trail is already officiating the two players involved, let the Trail call the crash.

2) If the the Lead is watching the crash, that leaves the Trail to make a call under the basket on a quick catch-and-drive. So what you end up with is the Lead looking out at the 3-point line and the Trail looking down on the block. Why do that?

In cases where the pass/crash is not in transition, then I would just officiate it according to normal areas of responsibility. In other words, if the pass/crash happens right in front of the Lead in a set offense, then the Lead will make a call (or not) on the crash, since it's his/her area. The Trail, then, would be forced to follow the pass.

Hope that makes some sense.

Chuck

NevadaRef...
 

I agree. It's not the lead's call because you have no business looking there anyway. That's why you don't make it. If you're lead and there's a BC violation that your partner doesn' call, are you going to call that too?

Bad idea.

Pass/Crash
 

IMHO-
I think I agree with ChuckE but you have got to pregame it either way you decide to handle it so it doesn't blow up in your face with a rotten no call or a block charge double whistle.
The trail should take the crash because his body momentum is going to the hoop and should be reffing the trail aggressively on this play.
The lead's tendency is to follow the ball on the pass anyway so stay with it!
And when the double whistle does come (assume it will in this situation) resist the urge to give the quick block or charge signal as your partner may have the opposite call. Just get the fist up, hesitate, glance at your partner, make sure you know who's gonna take this call (which you talked about before you came out)and then SELL IT!

I am going back to something Rich mentioned

Another instance where I see double whistles is when a player drives the lane. While this is the lead's primary area, the trail may have a better angle on contact out front -- especially if the drive starts from the trail's side of the court. Since most of the off-ball activity is going to be in that area anyway, the trail's eyes are there.

I do not think this is leads primary here.

If the drive starts in trail's primary, there is no way lead knows what happens. This is especially true if the lead is working off ball right, lead may only pick up part of the play.... This is trail's call first. Then leads. If it starts below FT line then there could be a double whistle but if is starts wide or high it's trail's call.

Absolutely correct Kelvin...if it starts in my primary, I am taking it all the way to the hoop...if my partner wants to blow the whistle on it too, that's fine, but I am taking it to the table...I have no problem with most double whistles, but let the correct official actually report it...and as for the original situation - Lead better not make that call since he/she shouldn't be looking up there, and if you won't make the call in the first quarter - why would you make it in the last 30 seconds???????

Pregame
 

All this comes down to is what you talked about in a pregame. If you talk about these things in your pregame, you will know what your partner thinks before you make the call. That is why you have to talk philosophy within the "this is where you stand, this is where I stand" conversations. Veteran or rookie, you need to discuss the things that have them call their game. At least so if you know going in that you might have different philosophies, you can at least try to call similar things or you know who has what call. The mechanics book is just a guideline, the reality is what you discuss in the pregame.

Peace

Rut-
I like what you said about reality is what you discuss in pregame. It helps us get on the same page or hopefully close to the same page. Whether we have worked with this partner once or hundreds of time. We may need to focus on what we have called right or polish up on the areas that we may not be doing right.

AK ref SE

If the offensive player who throws or last touches the ball before it goes into the backcourt is in the lead's primary area (say on the lead's side down in the corner of the endline and sideline, diagonally opposite from the trail) where the trail "has no business looking" how is the trail going to call a backcourt violation if the offensive team is the first to touch in the backcourt? The answer is that he was looking in the lead's area! So it goes both ways.
Now if the trail is my partner and doesn't make this call because he does not know where the ball came from or is unsure who touched it last, you bet I am going to come out and make this call. Of course, we should come together and discuss it, but I am not going to just let it go simply because the officials manual says backcourt should be called by the trail.

I believe that it is even worse if I don't make the call in this situation and it determines the outcome of the game.


With the comment about this happening in last 30 seconds, I was trying to draw a distinction between what I felt was a relatively minor oversight on the part of the trail official and what could be a gamebreaker if the trail misses it?

I don't think that we should screw some team just because of the proper mechanic. Many of the responses have said to get the call right.

Now I don't make a habit of watching my partner's area, nor do I take his check after the game. ;) But I happened to see this one.
I really believe that these kids and coaches have worked too hard and dedicated too much of their time, for me to not step up and make the right call in a gamebreaker situation, even if I have to step on someones toes.
I would not sleep well if I had knowledge of the play and did nothing.


The main reason that I posted this thread was to get some feedback about this vets overbearing attitude, and my response to it, which in this case caused me to ignore this violation.
Maybe next time he could miss something a lot more major, like a punch, in his area. For the betterment of those whom he officiates and officiates with, should someone tell him that he is out-of-line with his demand not to call his area?
Or should I just demand that he doesn't miss anything there! :D

[Edited by Nevadaref on Dec 20th, 2002 at 05:46 AM]

vet etiquiete
 

Most of the great vets that I've had the pleasure of working with EXPECT me to help the team (us) get the call right! We discuss this in the all important pre-game. We know not to call out of primary most of the time. It's our goal to never call out of our primary but as they say "in the fog of war" I want to have a partner that's gonna bail out my a$$ if I'm sceened out in my primary. If it means making the game better by all means make the call.
You know where you stand with a vet in the pre-game by the attetion level shown by your him. If he is an arrogant SOB and tells you "Hey, we got two teams and a ball, let's go!" be afraid, be very afraid.

Re: vet etiquiete
 

Amen to that!!

OK...two things: 1)Don't assume that making/not making a call in the first quarter is not a "game-breaking" situation...things that happen early in the game can have a definite impact on what comes later...so if you wouldn't make a call in the first quarter - don't make it in the fourth...if it's something that needs to be called late in the game, call it when it happens early in the game also...

2)When working with this type of official, you can do two things...you can pull your head in and not call anything in "his" area in order to not cause any waves...or you can have the attitude that "this is MY game" and call what you sincerely feel needs to be called and deal with the fall-out after the game...personally, I follow choice two and have had some problems afterward, but always been able to work them out...my philosophy is to protect the integrity of the game first, and integrity of the partners after that...