"If it were in a HS game. . ."

[ChuckElias]

In a couple of different threads over the last week, I've seen comments like, "If this had been a HS game, it would definitely have earned a T. But since it was middle school, I talked to him".

Maybe I'm out of touch, but I give T's MUCH more quickly in sub HS games than I do in my high school games. Forgive the rant, but I've worked way too hard and long to take stupid comments from a middle school coach who has no idea what he's talking about.

High school games generally (though not always) carry more significance to the participants, so I'm less willing to insert myself into the game. But at the middle school level, where the only point is to teach the game and have fun (at least around here), I'm going to shut down a coach quickly if he's out of line.

Bang these guys early and often, and maybe some of them will get the hint that we're people and not punching bags. They're there to coach their teams, period.

Just my opinion.

Chuck

[w_sohl]

AMEN!!!

[Ralph Stubenthal]

I agree 100% Chuck.

[kmref]

I have the same opinion on this item; however, I decided to do something else. I don't work those games any longer. I would go and do a college game on night and not hear a peep. The next night I did a HS game and the coach/fans/players/etc were nuts. If you are working on officiating the higher levels doing these games does nothing but cause you to resent them. This is a hobby that is slowly becoming a great source of income for my family. The game is about the kids and if we or they(coaches) don't fully comprehend this I decided rather than frustrate myself I don't do these games anymore. It is not the solution rather than a solution that worked for me.

[zebraman]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've had junior high coaches who were so clueless that I had to laugh and then give them a little education. They thought that it was OK to "work" the refs because the only hoops they knew of was the NBA on TV.

"Hey coach, you are not allowed to walk the sidelines nor are you allowed to argue with calls. By the way, there are no illegal defense calls under high school rules nor do your players get six fouls."

At the Jr. High level, the schools often have a hard time finding coaches and it shows. I expect High School coaches to know the rules. If I have a Jr. High coach who doesn't have a clue, sometimes it does more good to work with him/her than to give a T right off the bat.

Z

[Andy]

My experience has been that the lower in level that you officiate, the more the coaches have received their "training" from the ESPN Sportcenter Bobby Knight temper tantrum coaching academy.

So much is said in college and NBA broadcasts about "working the refs" that these mostly new coaches believe they must scream and yell at the refs, just like Bobby and friends, as part of their coaching duties.

As these coaches move up the ladder to HS JV and Varsity and beyond, they seem to realize the difference in the game on TV and the one in their gym.

I don't mean this as a blanket over all MS coaches, but I have seen this often enough to believe it exists.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by kmref
I have the same opinion on this item; however, I decided to do something else. I don't work those games any longer. I would go and do a college game on night and not hear a peep. The next night I did a HS game and the coach/fans/players/etc were nuts. If you are working on officiating the higher levels doing these games does nothing but cause you to resent them. This is a hobby that is slowly becoming a great source of income for my family. The game is about the kids and if we or they(coaches) don't fully comprehend this I decided rather than frustrate myself I don't do these games anymore. It is not the solution rather than a solution that worked for me.

If the game is about the kids (and I agree with you completely on that), why punish them because of the fans? They need refs w/ college and high school experience like yourself. Besides, there are always ways to control the situation. I've found that working middle school games is a great way to improve my game management and non-player management skills. I can't remember (knock on wood), the last time I had a bad experience w/ a jr. high game.

Z

[ScottParks]

I said exactly the same thing in another thread. If they don't learn as they are moving up, how the heck do we expect them to behave when they are in HS.

[williebfree]

It is clear that I am one of the officials who's posts have been cited, "Since it is MS..." I am pleased to be one of the first to respond.

It appears that we both ultimately agree on the objective of MS athletics, but it is evident that we differ on our interpretation of the process. As you stated, "(MS) where the only point is to teach the game and have fun..." I prefer to educate the coach than address the situation with the "T".

You said, "They're there to coach their teams, period." How can they coach their team if they themselves do not understand the rules? Unfortunately, most coaches do not spend the amount of time necessary to understand many of the nuiances of the rules. I feel it is penalizing the players by "T"ing the coach when he is that ignorant.

Maybe the most effective way to "cure" this epidemic is to issue rulebooks and exams to the coaches instead of "T"s.

As I have included in most of my posts, I am fairly "thick-skinned" with coaches. I want to acknowledge that I do see your side of the argument and will reconsider my position on when to "Whack" him.

Well, I see my response was not as prompt as others, but it is evident that this is one of those situations that has two schools of thought.

[Edited by williebfree on Dec 17th, 2002 at 11:49 AM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

You are right-on Z-man.

Talking with an uneducated/ignorant coach will likely gain you his respect whereas just T-ing him for something that he obviously doesn't understand to begin with... can infuriate him, exasperate him, embarrass him etc.

Many of these coaches got their positions because of their willingness to be a driver... so what is the response of a driver personality after you have infuriated, exasperated, or embarrassed him...? Let's rumble! And, that's not the response we want.

I say show as much respect for the coaches as you can (as you can tolerate). They often have worked as deliberately to get into their posisition as coach, as we have to become good officials... We can't possibly expect them to respect us if we don't return the favor.

Of course, there are always belligerent exceptions... Do the dance and T them. Maybe the combination of your willingness to rumble and their ignorance will convince them to choose a different avocation.

[kmref]

I guess that I didn't mention the fact that even though I don't officiate these games any longer I take the opportunity to help younger/newer officials. A team gets better by playing better competition and so does an official. Players play the season in order to get to the "playoffs" and officials ref to get the better games. It is extremely important that the kids have the opportunity to play the game correctly, but it is equally important that these games are training grounds for our future of "top officials".

[Tim Roden]

At the Junior High level, I have decided it is not a place for the rookie official. Especially the A games. I think he needs to be calling freshman and JV games. The coaches are much better behaved and the fans are better behaved. That said, I have attended college games and they can be very interesting. Espcially if you have a roudy student section. But for the most part, you don't have respect for a student to begin with so he is harmless to your psychy. That coach on the sideline in a JH game who you were taught at a tender age to respect, is a tougher man to handle. As an official you have got to put that out of your mind and work on getting the "Myths" of the game out of his head.

I worked a JH game last night with another veterans. It was a rough game but it went a whole lot smoother than one with a rookie. Now if I could only get the guy to call from the same rulebook that I use. Another story for another day.

[rockyroad]

Interesting thoughts Chuck...I agree to some extent, but would change it to show that I no longer work HS games for the same reasons you stated...I will gladly go work a MS game with newer officials, and help them out, but don't enjoy the HS coaches at all (for the most part)...seems like the irate MS coach just needs a quick explanation of something, and then is done...of course, I will certainly T them if they deserve it, but would rather go do two MS games on one of my "nights off" than a HS game at this point in my career...

[Rich]

I'm sure my recent comments about middle school helped get this thread going. Or maybe not. Well, I'll get in anyway....

I don't think a technical would've done anything but infuriate the coach in my game. We aren't there to be hard-line punishers, in my opinion, and my verbally stopping him and getting him off the floor served the purpose (he didn't come back on the floor again during the game) of letting him know that behavior was unacceptable. A teaching point.

I view MS as training ground for everybody -- the players, the coaches, and sometimes, my partner. But I do agree with the person that freshman and JV games make better training games.

I do think I'll be limiting my activity at this level in the future. I've noticed that a lot of the middle school officials are either newbies or people that don't have high aspirations in officiating, but like the extra cash. I don't mind letting them have this work.

Rich

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by williebfree
It is clear that I am one of the officials who's posts have been cited, "Since it is MS..." I am pleased to be one of the first to respond.

I didn't mean to single anybody out. I don't even know which threads contained the posts I mentioned. My intention was not to chastise anyone, but merely to say that I think it doesn't do anyone any good to withhold unsporting technicals fouls in lower level games.

I prefer to educate the coach than address the situation with the "T".

I mean this sincerely: the best lesson he can learn at that level is not about the rules, it's not about strategy, it's about how to deal with people in a basketball environment. And the best way to educate him is to say, "Coach, you simply may not speak to me that way." Whack. Technical. If this happens consistently with all officials, it won't take long for coaches to start thinking, "Man, I don't like that call at all! But I better keep my mouth shut for now."

You said, "They're there to coach their teams, period." How can they coach their team if they themselves do not understand the rules? Unfortunately, most coaches do not spend the amount of time necessary to understand many of the nuiances of the rules.

Frankly, this is not my problem. If anyone -- coach, player, even a fan -- genuinely wants an explanation, I'll give one. I'm a teacher, I don't mind answering a good question. But if you want to yell at me, you're on a very short leash. Also, if you want (and get) an explanation, but can't let go of the situation, you better be prepared to buckle your seat belt.

I am fairly "thick-skinned" with coaches. I want to acknowledge that I do see your side of the argument and will reconsider my position on when to "Whack" him.

And honestly, I am probably more thick-skinned than I should be in my HS games. As I said, I have NO problem whatsoever answering a question. But I think it's a mistake for an official to respond to a tirade with an explanation, which unfortunately happens a lot at the MS level.

Just my opinion.

Chuck