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Thu Apr 13, 2000, 11:45am
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Brian,
You are right that the opposing team gets the points, but since it is in the wrong basket, it is not technically considered a "shot" in the same sense as we are used to. Therefore, it would always be 2 points awarded, even if it was thrown from outside the arc. I admit, I don't have my book here to double check, but I'm pretty confident in what I said. But . . . I've been wrong once or twice before. 
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Thu Apr 13, 2000, 01:02pm
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So after all this, I am understanding that if the shot in the NC State game was indeed a shot, then that hoop should have been illegal? There is no doubt that it was an attempted shot, NOT a pass. Is there a ref anywhere who would make that call? Has that call ever been made?? I think if the stripes called it in that game we would be fishing up their remains from the Atlantic Ocean!!
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Thu Apr 13, 2000, 02:29pm
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I think it wasn't called in the NC St. game because that duck really had no chance of going in. But on the filp side, what if he was on defense and smacked the ball, would the call have been different?
From the looks of the tape the other day, I think Ewing clearly touched that ball and that one should have been waived off. That miss by the refs was almost as bad as the IU/Ohio St. game earlier in the year where they counted a bucket that never happened.
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Thu Apr 13, 2000, 10:22pm
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quote: I don't think that's really a good attitude to have. We here in Suriname try to always be ready to explain anything, called or uncalled. If someone has a question, they expect the ref to have the answer. And the ref SHOULD have an answer. He should know the rules better than anyone around the floor (so to speak) I just briefly looked at the fiba rules on this one (No 29): It explains that u get 1 point for free-throws, 2 for field goals, and three for field goals from beyond the arc. Then it says thatif a team scores in own basket, the POINTS are given as if the captain scored the ball. It probably counts as three pointer!!
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Fri Apr 14, 2000, 08:46am
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quote: Technically it might not be a shot, but since the ball was "thrown" by the OFFENSIVE player into his own basket, it is still treated the same. I wouldn't be signaling a 3-point attempt if I thought it was a pass, but if it goes through, my arms are coming up promptly. So, while not technically a shot, it would be technically correct (by rule) to award the 3 points. Either way, we agree on the end result.
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Mon Apr 17, 2000, 06:12pm
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quote: If it is a shot, my arm goes up on the release. We have to make that decision many times through the game. (Is a player fouled while shooting or not?). If my arm is not up on the release, it is not a shot but a pass. If it then goes in, it is only 2.
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Tue Apr 18, 2000, 08:29am
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I'd be interested to see if you can find rule book support for that position (my book is at home). I'd also be surprised. It is not our arm going up that determines whether it counts for three or just two. The key, I believe, is whether the offensive player himself caused the ball to go from his hands directly into the basket. If he did so from beyond the 3-point arc, it's three points. That takes the "guesswork", and potential arguments, out of some situations and the need to decide whether it was an unusual-looking shot or a pass---in other words, it doesn't matter. Think of all those last-second "shots" from the length of the court we've seen on the highlight clips: baseball type of throw, usually seen in a long pass situation, but always counted for three if it goes in. But, like I said, I've been wrong before. Just show me the rule book interpretation, and I'll be a believer.
[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited April 18, 2000).]
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Tue Apr 18, 2000, 08:52pm
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Todd-
Check out NFHS 4-40-1 through 3 (definition of shooting, try) and 4-31 (definition of pass). The difference is if we think the ball was INTENDED for the basket, or another player. Last second situations: those are definitely shots. Why else would they be throwing it up there? Rehuel- (it's scary that I know how to spell your name without looking now!) That quote was tongue-in-cheek said to me by a veteran lead official. It made a lot of sense to me in how to address game control. Imagine yourself trying to explain why this "shot" is a two and not a three. Do you really think you will give the coach a satisfactory answer to his question? "coach, rule 4-40-1 & 4-31, it was a pass not a shot". You and your partner may be the only ones in the gym who actually know the rule (and I'm not so sure your partner will know), but is it more important to get that particular rule "right", or to maintain the flow of the game.
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 08:54am
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quote: The danger in speaking "off the cuff" is that one can't check to be sure of the accuracy of one's impressions. Few people have perfect recollection, myself included among those who do not. In finally looking up the Definitions, it does appear that the official has to JUDGE that a player is trying for a goal (Rule 4-40-2, as pizzano indicated). That surprised me, in that it allows more subjectivity than I expected or would think desireable, but I can't really argue with the wording in the book. Now I have to re-think the matter some more so I'm ready in a game situation. Anyway, unless I get additional information to support my original impression, I concede. Thanks, pizanno, mick and Camron, for fine-tuning my knowledge base and keeping me sharp.
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 09:14am
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I still can't see me trying to explain this to a coach. Its to bad we know the rule. Now we can start looking at every pass/shot behind the arc with scrutiny.
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 10:23am
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I hear you, Bart. That's one I didn't want to admit being wrong on, because I liked "my way" better.
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 10:46am
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I dont have to rules in front of me to verify, but I dont see where anyone has quoted the rulebook as stating that a ball going into the hoop off of what we consider a pass, to be only two points, no matter where it came from. (Im going from memory here but) In fact doesnt the book state that a ball which enters the hoop from beyond 19-9 is considered three points?
I guess Im confused. By rule, not common sense, why would we not award the three? In this situation I can see myself giving two points only if I am not completely sure the shot/pass came entirely behind the arc. Also, has anyone found a casebook example?
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 02:53pm
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According to the book, "a successful try or tap from the field by a player who is located behind the 19-foot, 9-inch line counts three points. Any other goal from the field counts two points . . . " (5-2-1). Then rule 4-40-2, as pointed out by pizanno, says, "A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official's judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal." Until I read these yesterday, I felt the same way as you: of course you would award 3 points. But, based on the above rule quotes, the book seems to suggest that we officials must "judge" whether the player was actually attempting a shot (i.e., a "try") or not before awarding 3 points. Anything else apparently falls into the "any other goal" category in rule 5-2-1. I couldn't find any Case Book situation that touched on a "non-shot" going in the hoop from outside the 3-point arc. Seems odd to me, but . . . At the least, anything remotely resembling an attempt to throw the ball in the hoop from out there is getting three from me.
[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited April 20, 2000).]
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 03:18pm
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I don't want to argue with the book, but I would almost like to get an interpretation from the NF. I bet if we asked, they would say count it as three. My gut feeling is the only reason we need to determine if the action was a pass or a shot is if A1 is fouled.
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Thu Apr 20, 2000, 09:29pm
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NFHS Rule 4 Section 40 Aticle 2.
" A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team's own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the officials judgement is throwing or attempting to throw for goal ( I interperet that as a shot ) As for an attempt at the "wrong basket" score all as two points because a try has to be at one's own basket.
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