Thoughts on Technical Foul
 

I am an official, but I also coach a junior high team. Tonight, we were up 7 with about 30 seconds left. We got the rebound, and a girl from the other team went down hard. She's under the basket and not moving as we dribble up court--the officials have no clue.

I quickly yell timeout and point at the girl. The ref blows his whistle and calls the other coach out. After a few minutes, she is helped off and of course the crowd claps for her. The opposing coach then asks (and I am stunned by this) if I am going to be charged for a timeout. The official decides to charge me.

Now, had this been my assignment, I would have taken an official's timeout all the way to help the injured player. As the official comes to report it, I express my displeasure since I was helping them with an injured girl. Getting charged a timeout really doesn't matter--I would still have 1 or 2 left and the game is all but over. However, I just couldn't get by the principle of it all and tell the gentleman that I think him charging me a timeout is "really bad officiating", then walked away. He then apparently gives me a T. Never told me...just charged it, waited for the timeout to end and lined up to shoot it. I figured it out from my girls who told me. I didn't say one word about it.

Anyhow, two thoughts. Would you charge a team a timeout in that situation, or make it an official timeout. I know I said I would make that an official timeout.

Do you agree with the T? Saying it's bad officiating and walking away? No name calling, nothing personal. Just disagreement with how it was handled.

If a coach, while on offense, alerts me to an injured opponent (whether known or unknown by the officials), my interpretation immediately becomes that they are giving up their offensive drive and I can't see not killing the play immediately.

No, I would not call a team timeout in the situation as you described. I would go with an official's timeout.

Note that an official doesn't have to "tell the perpetrator" about a foul call. Any voicing of a foul is done in a general sense to anyone that is interested. The only official direct conversation is directed to the scorekeeper. However, any dead ball T I call will likely have a whistle from me with a clear voice reporting the foul. IOW, the coach will surely know that he was T'd up.

I would not T a coach up for saying that something is "really bad officiating". Now, if he was a case of ABS, I most definitely would consider it.

Would I charge a timeout in this situation? Nope...I would retroactively make it an official's timeout.

I probably wouldn't assess a technical foul either for your comment unless it was an ABS T like Juggling said. If I were to give a T, I'm blowing the whistle and giving the signal and using my voice to alert of a technical foul. I have a hard time thinking of a situation where a coach would not know that I've assessed him with a T.

I would go with an injury time-out and not one to either team.

Your comment was out of line and I would have issued you a technical foul for it.

Next time that an inexperienced official does something which you don't like remain calm, keep your composure, and don't say anything. Most of the officials for younger kids games are learning. You can give your thoughts after the game in a cordial manner, if you wish.

And another "T" if the girl's mother came out of the stands to check out why her daughter that wasn't moving....

Right?

1) Injury TO not charged to either team

2) No

If the comment was "charging a time out there is really bad officiating" I do not regard that as personal (and indeed might be true), so it would not warrant a T.

If the official heard you say something along the lines of "you guys are really bad officials," that IS personal, and would warrant a T. You might have made the call more difficult by turning your back and mumbling your comment, which is usually evidence that it's T-worthy.

JMO, but that's how I would draw the line.

Wow! JR, you are okay with an official treating a fellow official in this manner!?!? Have you gotten soft in your old age?

Hahahaha! :D

Do we get two T's there if the mother and father come out? :confused:

Nevada, under those particular circumstances I doubt that I would have called a "T" in my young or middle ages either. The coach complained once about a call. And he didn't put on a show or prolong that complaint. I realize that all unsporting "T"s are judgment calls, but that one doesn't equate as being overly egregious to me. Maybe a warning. Sometimes.

And then again, maybe the coach was spot on. It was bad officiating to charge him with a TO imo also.

The coach was right about everything, except the way that he conducted himself. Telling an official that a decision is "really bad officiating" is greatly disrespectful and worthy of a technical foul. I'm really disappointed that such would come from someone who wears the stripes himself. :(

I'm with Nevada on this one, especially in a middle school game (some may disagree with that part).

I would not have charged the TO, but the "official" who was coaching ought to realize that any official who charges this TO is working "by the book" and isn't likely to be willing to take any grief in this situation. His emotions are up, he's already defensive, and he's likely to react this way. I have no real problem with the T, either.

I'm sorry, but saying "that's bad officiating" is personal, IMO.

Coach, next time, just get the official's attention and point to the injured player.

Just my two cents, but this might be the first domino.

Had the opposing coach not questioned it (and I certainly don't blame you for being stunned), perhaps you may have not been charged, as the official would just let it go. (Most of us would.) However, since the opposing coach indeed did question it, and you did call the time-out, perhaps the official thought, "he's got me there."

As for the technical foul, I'm with Juggling. I'd only T it up for an ABS, though I can see why others would. It could come down to a choice of words. Next time, go with "I don't agree with that at all." I can't think of a time where that alone would be t-worthy.

Here we go :rolleyes:

But its not!!

So... you're a member of the fraternity, swinging both ways as you play a role on the other side, in an off-season under-classman girls game, up by 7 with less than 30 seconds to play, with the ball in your f/c, 1 or 2 TOs remaining & you couldn't contain yourself?!?!?!
You're gonna show up a fellow brother in game you're gonna obviously win??
A cant believe how many passes you got on this post, I'll keep it real though!

Although when I whack one of you "I ref too coaches" the entire gym will know it, this obviously inexperienced official did not have to "tell" you :rolleyes:
Is that what you do when you play the role of a ref?
Do you run & tell them how many TOs they have remaining too?

THATS WHAT YOU SHOULD'VE DONE ON THE INCORRECT DECISION TO CHARGE YOU THE TO, COACH -errrr- REF!

Since you know how it should be charged, the correct way would've been to approach the official after the game & explain it as a brother (you know, I ref too) then maybe point him in the direction of an association/camp.

It all depends!!
In a wreck environment, I admit my mistakes just like I would in a real game. Due to lower fees, horrible play, terrible coaching strategies & more hours of enduring idiot fans/coaches/players without a lockerroom to get a break from them, my tolerance level sure isn't the same!

In a real game, I might let a coach off with a warning for blasting me then walking away.
But at the level you "coach" I hardly think so, ref :rolleyes:

I cant believe you even brought this one to the forum!! You've been here before & you know how we get down. Respect the craft, no matter what role you decide to play from day to day.
That goes for you ref/players too!

No disrespect to you, but how about next time he just STFU. I mean, seeing how his girls team is up by 7 with less than 30 seconds to play & 1 or 2 TOs remaining, with the ball in his f/c and all.
Oh did I mention that he belonged to our frat?

While I agree with your sentiment tref, I believe you've taken this comment and gone DEFCON 1 with it.

Perhaps, I've just seen too many of his kind lately & its a bit much, after working high level playoff games then hopping back on the wreck scene.

Coaches that ref too...
Players that ref too...
Mommas that ref too...
Daddys that ref too...
Little cousins whose uncles, yeah, ref too...

My point is, if you do ref too:

1. You are still held to a higher standard while coaching/playing.
2. You're not working THIS game, but there is an extra shirt & whistle in my bag, lets go 3!
3. Treat officials how you would like to be treated when you officiate.

ABS? What is that?

Oh I definitely agree, but I feel there's a huge difference between the statement in the OP, and say the actions of the forum poster (Judtech?) earlier who lambasted the officials and acted like the out of control coaches we talk about here. That's all I was really saying. :D

Accumulation of B***S***.

Fraternity
 

A few things. I never pulled any type of "I am an official, too" on the guy. I also know it isn't my assignment. Also, I didn't show the official up. I told him face to face, in a close conversation where the only person that might have heard was the scorer that his decision was bad officiating. He didn't respond and I went to my huddle.

I then found out he gave me a T from my girls who were watching from the bench.

I don't show up officials. Once I got the T, I sat on the bench and didn't say a word. Although I didn't agree with his T, I respected his right to give me one and didn't argue a thing.

I think this whole "being in the fraternity" means we are perfect people and can't ever make mistakes ourselves. Plus, some of you also assumed it was a young guy. This was an older guy who does our games. In 15 years of coaching and 22 years of officiating, that is only the second T I have ever received, so please Nevada, don't make it seem like I am some Master Official trying to berate and intimidate other officials, or that I am disrespecting the fraternity. It isn't the case at all.

Had I yelled there was a player down, it would not have had the immediate effect of stopping play that yelling timeout would have. The officials had no clue and did I mention the girl was not moving?

I appreciate the feedback. I also told my girls I could have handled it better and my desire is to never, ever get a technical foul. Like I said, I didn't agree with it, but I got one. And I never, ever like to set that example for my girls.

Anyhow, bottom line is I think most of you agree it should have been an official's timeout and the T was in the 50/50 area.

Thanks, and sorry that I am not a perfect human being.

Accumulation of Bull $%^*

A comment that by itself you would probably ignore but when they start accumulating and multiplying like rabbits it is enough to peg your T-meter.

Thanks Welpe and APG. Adding that to my officiation lexicon.

Defcon 1
 

Yup, Defcon 1 for sure. You are assuming I was ranting and raving and screaming. Wrong. I simply told him in a normal conversation it was bad officiating. I like how I am held to a higher standard of other coaches because I officiate. Why? Because I know the rules? Or because I know how hard the job is? As many other officials in here will tell you, please show me that in the rulebook.

I hold officials to a high standard because that is what the job requires. When officials tell me it isn't a backcourt violation because both feet and the ball didn't go into the backcourt, it gets frustrating and I do explain after the game they have the rule backwards.

Anyhow, instead of just answering the question in general:

1) would you charge the timeout
2) would that be a T

you and Nevada instead decide to make character judgments about me and come up with some "fraternity" stuff. Just like what, police should look the other way when another police officer commits an illegal act? Give me a break.

The best part, tref, is that you will then BECOME the show. You will make sure the entire gym knows it! Gosh, I would love to come watch some of your games. I bet you think people come to watch you.

Newsflash.

They don't.

Sorry coach, but this is news to you? Of course you are.

Last thought
 

I truly posted to:

1) Find out if my feelings were correct that most would not charge a timeout to a coach in that situation

2) Was a T warranted

Most of you would make it an official's timeout for 1. Cool.

In 2, I also added that I was winning and had plenty of timeouts left. I was willing to point out my argument was unwarranted and it was an imperfect moment on my part. So the T certainly could have been warranted and I'm cool with this. The reality is I got a T and I understand why. He might have been right to give it to me--it's his decision and I respect that. I just didn't agree with it.

Thanks for the feedback. Being the coach at times gives me insight to both sides and I asked the question for feedback--not to take sides and certainly not to come under attack. It is all to become a better official and coach on my part.

Show me the rule.

So, what you are basically saying is that you will give another coach more leeway and hit me harder because I also officiate.

Therefore, you have no decided to give the other coach and advantage and already taken away your role as impartial official who is there to keep things fair.

Well done. And if you never know I also officiate, now what?

1. Does this official know you ref? If so, I would be a little more quick with the T. Your comment was out of line, regardless, however, and you should have known you were risking a T when you said it. Whether he "told" you isn't really relevant. He's not required to. He told the table. Would you prefer he made a show out of it, like you're accusing tref of wanting to do?

2. Was the girl in danger? Did you bring an EMT onto the court? If not, a few extra seconds isn't going to make things worse. Get his attention, point to the player. Unless she's unconscious or bleeding profusely, I don't get the "urgency" here.

I'll reanswer. No, I wouldn't have charged the TO. Frankly, I would have come up to you and quietly asked, while the injured player was being attended to, if you really wanted the TO.

Yes, I would have given you a T. The only thing I would have done differently is blown my whistle when giving it.

I respect that, coach! My apologies!

Just curious, with the game situation (time & score) being what it was, why say anything at all?

Also, if you dont think it looks bad for a coach (while he's upset) to have a quick face to face with an official, then walk away, thats on you.

And, "bad officiating" is a commentators term. Nobody "in the game" talks like that.

I'm not talking about in the game where you are subject the official's judgment, I am talking about in how you interact with your officials, as was tref, Nevada and everybody else that commented about it.

It's not a rule, it's an expectation of professional courtesy even if you are not being shown any in return. Of course we, as officials, hold our fellow brothers and sisters in stripes to a higher standard when it comes to conduct within our own ranks. We have enough problems with the ignorant and uniformed. I'm actually surprised that this surprises you.

I don't believe he meant in-game that he would hold an official to a higher standard. Rather, when we have stories here about officials in a coaching role, we expect better of them because you know what it's like to be on the other end of the stick. If you want to see an example of that, search for a thread that poster Judtech started where he went off on the officials and the whole forum went off on him.

Never said that, you are inferring quite a bit. I already explained my comment. But if you are making it a point to tell me you are an official, my leash is already getting shorter on what I'm allowing you to get away with.

With the way you are willing to address fellow officials, I'm not surprised you got stuck. Too bad he didn't toss you too.

Let me ask you, coach. Are you a registered official with your state? Are you in an association? Does your state or association have guidelines on how to behave when watching a game; particularly how you treat the officials on the court?

The fact is, you are held to a higher standard. Because:
1. Everyone in the gym that matters knows you're an official, and comments like that show the current officials up; intentionally or not.
2. The official knows you are an official, and comments like that are a personal attack due to your status.

Did tref overreact? Maybe, but we've all had the "ireftoo" coach who tries to tell us how to officiate his game.

There's a varsity ref in my association who also coaches Freshman girls. When you work his games, you wouldn't know he's an official except in how he phrases his questions. "What did you see on that? What was the call?" I've never had him argue a call.

In your situation, he would have simply turned around and walked back to his bench, ate his timeout, and probably said something to the assigner after the game.

There was one exception.

+1 on everything.

Yeah, it was a bad comment. I was probably talking as an official at that moment and deserved the T.

Also, I do ultimately agree I should be held to a higher standard.

She really did go down pretty hard and wasn't moving. I truly was worried for her which is why I yelled timeout. Her dad came and thanked me after the game.

Anyhow, thanks again. I should have handled it better. I appreciate the people who point out I could have handled it better rather than attacking me. We need to keep each other on course at times and I veered off.

You are correct. I should have not said anything. This was an 8th grade where ADs get their own officials.

I shouldn't have baited you guys with the show me the rule stuff. I truly agree with the higher standards part.

Sorry I got everyone off track.

Okay, I misunderstood. Sorry. I didn't argue a call this game. The other coach was on him all game, even on the floor yelling at him. I think it was a culmination of everything and I got stuck at the end.

You are correct Welpe.

It surprises me that after 22 years of service, you didn't know we are held to a higher standard both on & off the court. Whether we are working, playing, coaching or spectating.

Its girls basketball, thats what they do!! They fall down & hurt themselves... After 15 years of service on that side, it surprises me that you dont know this either.

Perhaps I attacked you, perhaps I just pointed out the facts & you didnt like it. You STILL fail to answer any questions...
up 7 with 30 seconds left, with the ball. WHY?

Actually, I can understand the instinct to ask if you can save your TO. At 30 seconds, it's just now getting to the point where you could put in your subs. It's not like it's a 20 point lead.

He knows the standard is higher, he just got a bit snippy. God knows I've done that.

No worries. Around here, even 8th grade is assigned by an assigner. A different assigner than the high school stuff, but still an assigner (who happens to be a varsity official also).

In your situation, I would let it go. Sounds like you have a career MS ref working the game; not much to be gained really. You said he was older, but he still may be "new" at officiating.

I can understand the urgency if the player laying there motionless. How do we know if she is conscious or not?

Also, mechanics wise, the trail official should have stayed back or kept an I on the player until the opportunity to stop play. Should not have taken either coach to point out that a player was down.

I agree. The fact is, he's right about it being bad officiating. He was just wrong to say it.

I know it is a higher standard. I do not allow any of my girls to make calls on the court or from the bench, and win or lose they find every official after every game and say thank you.

It was stupid. I was more upset that after I helped the other coach's player he was the one who demanded I be charged with a timeout. And he was the coach on the officials all game.

Yeah, I got snippy. Sorry. I come in here and read all the time and respect what I read in here. The only thing missing is a Mark Padgett witty retort.

I can too, but when he did not receive the answer he was looking for, which is also the correct answer, why drop Billy Packers line & set up the potential 5 or 6 point swing?

Gotta love & respect the coach that picks the wise battles.

You're not missing much. Sounds like your issue is more with the coach for pressing this. Can't say I blame you. Of course, from the sounds of it, he would have been sitting down by this point in my game.

For some reason, I hate the post game thank-yous from players. I've learned to accept it in games where I can't get off the court quickly (ms, rec, AAU, "Gold Crown"), but in a hs game, I'm off the court before the players have a chance to look for me.

Okay, okay. I already admitted it was stupid! :)

Our officials always stay and do a B game afterwards. Many of our officials come and finish dressing in the gym, so they are changing shoes and putting on coats after the 2nd game. I want my girls to have a healthy respect for officials for when they move on up to high school and I also explained my T was unacceptable. Bad example, bad form on my part.

Truce!

*Homeland Official levels have been downgraded to green*

One of the main reasons I don't like MS games. Even if they're working two games, they should have a room to retreat to. While it may prevent your girls from being able to shake their hands, it also prevents knucklehead parents from taking a chance to speak their minds.

If you want, they can thank the officials before the game.

Just my $.02.

Agreed.

And if that was the first comment Big2Cat had made the entire game, I'm not T'ing him for it. From what he posted, it sounds like the classic case of one coach whining and moaning the entire game - but not getting T'd, and then the quiet coach making one comment and getting whacked. The ABS ran downhill toward Big2Cat.

Of course, if he had not made the comment, the T would not have been called.

Am I one of the "everybody else"? I commented on it.

Sorry, Nevada, Snaqs,Welpe, Tref, et al, I just do not agree with you. Imo saying "That's bad officiating" in that situation is no different than saying "That's bad officiating" after a travel call. It's exactly the same as saying "That's a bad call" or "You missed that one." If that's a one-off comment made quietly and without putting on a show, there is nowayinhell I'm ever calling an immediate "T" on that one. Maybe a warning...with the emphasis on "maybe". And I don't care whether the perp is an official or not, or whether it's grade school either.

I'm known as a law'n'order guy too, but that's just taking things way too far imo.

"That's a bad call" isn't, IMO, the same as "that's bad officiating." Disagree if you want, but that's beyond my line. Making the comment, as an official, is risking a T in this situation.

Since in this situation, I'd have stayed back as Trail and probably killed the play early in a ms girls game, it's hard to say how I'd respond. If I missed the injury and the opposing coach gave me the heads up, I'd be grateful and wouldn't charge the TO.

However, if I was L and my partner charged the TO, only to have the coach snap, "that's bad officiating," I'd be more likely than not to ring him up.

Concur

Everybody sets their own line and I sureasheck don't have a problem with that.

But if you're going to ring a coach up immediately for quietly saying for the very first time at the end of a game and without putting on any visible show "that's bad officiating" after you made a traveling call, well we sureasheck are going to disagree philosophically. I'd never dream of handing out a "T" under those circumstances.

Fair enough, the "quietly" part escaped me. I read it, but seem to have glossed over it. I probably wouldn't ring up a quiet comment like that without warning.

That said, I don't really feel too sorry for an official/coach who makes the comment in a ms game, to an official who just charged a TO in this situation, and gets rung.

Not saying I dont trust the guy :D but are we sure thats how it really happened?
I've seen a number of whinny coaches act like they haven't done anything ALL GAME. "What was that for" :confused:

I'd like to get the game officials take on it.

A coach giving an official a piece of his mind, then turning his back on him could be considered "putting on a show" depending on what has happened previously in the game.

I'm not saying I'd T it (I might but I'll go with HTBT). What I am saying is that the conduct of one official towards another that is working should be higher than that of the casual fan or coach. I'm sure you'd agree with me on that.

Nobody is perfect and just recently I violated this standard too at a minor league hockey game and I'm ashamed I did. It was humbling and I beat myself up on it pretty good for acting like Joe Six Pack the Ignorant Fan.

We really need to support our fellow officials out there working, no matter what capacity and level. Sure there are bad eggs but we would like the same in return. There are too few of us taking far too much garbage, let's try and make sure we're not adding to the heap.

That's all I'm saying.

No, but my response was based on his actions being portrayed accurately. Under the specific circumstances that Cat related, I personally would not hand out a "T". But I don't have a problem with the people that would, as long as they're consistent when they set their own line in the sand. Everybody has their own tolerance level when it comes to what they view as T-worthy. That's one area where I don't think we're ever going to get unanimity. So, it's up to the coaches and players to figure out what they can and cannot get away with. And when you're making comments instead of asking questions, you're taking your chances.

JMO

I do agree with that. But there are degrees of that too also imo. This is a long way from the actions of the Judtechs of the world imo. I personally don't think that what Cat did in this particular situation was particularly unsporting in nature. I took it as simply as just a one-off quiet and quick complaint about a call. Others might look at it differently. That's why any coach or player takes their chances when they complain. They have to know their audience.

Imo in this particular situation, issuing a "T" is like hitting an ant with a sledgehammer. But that's jmo.

I respect that JR!

But when was the last time you called or watched youth/wreck ball?
Some of those ants deserve the Acme anvil, especially during March!

Oh, about a week ago....:)....and this coming weekend we have a couple of tournaments to cover too....

And yes, we do have some concerns locally here about the antics of some of these daddy club coaches and their players and fans. We do NOT want our officials to take any crap from them and we'll back them 104.6%. But we also do try to treat each incident on it's own merits. And imo that's how Cat's situation should be treated also.

I agree and I think what Cat did is an example of that higher conduct. He didn't fly off the handle but quietly disagreed. Had the referee not called a T, no one would have been the wiser. (Also, does it bother anyone one else that Cat was charged with a T and no one came and told him to put the seat belt on?)

However, you cannot actually hold an official/coach to a higher standard. If you do, you are creating an unfair playing field and disadvantaging the team he is coaching.

"That's bad officiating" is not a phrase I'd ever take offense to. It's not personal. ("You're a bad official" is personal.) The tone and conduct of the coach might deserve a T, but it would be the delivery and not the message at fault.

Is there an 'n', Pat?

"If" it happened like he said it did, absolutely! HTBT

Honestly, I've rarely seen one of these type of games where the coach/dad didn't say, travel 37 times, get em off 26 times all while standing outside their box using sloppy signals. They think this behavior is okay for a couple reasons:

1. The guys who regularly work their games are inexperienced & dont know any better.

2. The guys who regularly work their games are intimidated by the coaches.



No it doesn't, he seated belted himself.

We cannot really hold anyone to a higher standard, that has got to come from within each individual.

Nope. He knew, and simply sat down. No one needed to tell him.

And that's not higher conduct to not "fly off the handle," it's what is expected. You going to give him credit for breathing, too?

I was talking about ignorant people in uniforms...what are you talking about?




That Mr. Annoying Spelling Guy sure gets around. :D

If the standard conduct is flying off the handle (and around here it is) and someone doesn't do that, yes, that's higher conduct. I'm not sure why that's hard to see.

So, would you whack a coach without telling him you did so?

I guess it's not the standard here, where the standard for officials is to deal with such conduct. Hopefully, that's not so hard to see.

You're right, though, if all the other coaches get away with being azzholes, and this coach doesn't; then he gets credit for "higher conduct."

I thought he just wanted to know what to do.

Don't yell "TO" when someone is injured. Just point out to the official that someone is injured and let the official stop the clock.

I'm not saying they get away with it, I'm saying it's the way they react.

Your standard is appears to be that an official/coach can't point an error or unfair action on the part of a referee (or do you simply T up any coach that disagrees with a call regardless of how they express it?). That's simply wrong. Cat made his point in a non-offensive way so that only the official knew he was disagreeing. If he was a regular coach we'd give him a medal. But since he's a ref, he's Ted up for it.

They had no clue, the people were chasing the ball, and there was a girl down and not moving. The easiest and best way to get her help was so simply yell, "timeout".

If they react that way regularly, then they're getting away with it.

You should probably read more of my posts on this. For some reason known only to God, I was thinking he made the comment fairly loudly.

Is "that's bad officiating" the same as "you're a bad official?" Not quite, but it's a lot closer to that than it is to "that's a bad call."

If said quietly, I'll warn. If said loudly, I'll whack. If somewhere in between, he's risking a T. If he's tried the "ireftoo" junk in this game, well that's just more BS for the accumulation. Note, he's not getting a short leash because he's a ref, he's getting the short leash because he said he's a ref. The only reason to say it is to try to influence the officials; not acceptable.

Note also, I'm not saying he did this, just elaborating.

Back to "my standard." It's not that he can't disagree or even point it out, but he's not going to show me up with that comment. Like it or not, it's a show-up comment designed to put the officials in their "proper place." What if he'd said, "that's middle school officiating...."?

Fair enough, but now you'll know that when you do that, you're risking actually having to use a TO. :D

And the other coach was an azz for insisting you get charged the TO. I would have glared at him, told him you were showing concern for his player, and put the ball in play. Of course, from the sounds of it, he'd have likely been seated by this point.

Fair enough.

Personally, I find "that's a bad call" and "that's bad officiating" to be functionally equivalent. That's the risk a coach takes for saying anything other than "I believe you're wrong."

Except Cat specifically said he didn't identify himself as a ref. I can see a shorter leash for someone you feel has tried to manipulate you, although I personally don't do this.

What's you opinion on a coach who you know is a ref but doesn't bring it up?

I don't find it to be a show-me-up comment. If he'd said "that's middle school officiating" I'd either ignore it or say "It is a middle school game."

I readily accept that I tend to be more tolerant of coaches' behaviors than most of this board.

Yep, and I was just elaborating a bit.

Good question. I'll treat him the same. I may come away with more or less respect for him as an official based on his performance, but I'll treat him as if he's not an official for the duration of that game.

Fair enough, I can live with simply disagreeing. If he says that loud enough to be heard across the gym, easy T. If only I hear it (not likely if he's walking away from me as in the OP), then I ignore. In between, it'll be at least a warning and maybe a T.

Poor game management by the official in my opinion.

As far as the T goes, you should know being an official, that every official has a different threshold when it comes to issuing a T. For example, some might not T for someone saying, "That call was horrible," but would for someone saying, "You are horrible."

As far as the timeout goes I don't see it any different than the situation I had a couple of weeks ago. A1 grabs a defensive rebound and starts bringing the ball up the floor. Coach A calls timeout. As I walk towards the table to report I notice A2 hobbling over to the bench. I ask the coach, "Do you want the timeout or just the sub for your injured player?" Coach says, "Just the sub." I hit the whistle, announce it's an official timeout, tell all of the players to come back on the floor and tell the table to not charge A with a timeout.

Final thought, now you know that you can't ask for a timeout with that official to replace an injured player he didn't see. Next time I would suggest getting the officials attention by saying something like, "Ref, there's an injured player," and point to him/her.

Hmmmmm. No player control, it sounds like.;)

When he says "that's bad officiating," to what does "that" refer?

It refers to the call or the act of making the call. To me, that's not personal, since it's about a single event and not the person of the official.

Of course you can draw your own line, but I think you're making a distinction without a difference here.

What the heck...
 

I was going to stay out of this, but since my name was mentioned few time:

I applaud BIG for his efforts to give back to the game. As difficult as it is to find quality officials, it is equally, if not more difficult to find people willing to coach teams. Especially the lower level less glamorous posts like he has.

I applaud BIG for coming on here to get feedback on procedure and input. It is not an easy thing to do and IMO he has handled himself very well.

I applaud BIG for teaching his girls to worry about their own play and not worry about things they can't control.

I applaud BIG for undertaking a difficult position of both someone who coaches and someone who officiates. It is not easy, and is not something a lot of people would want to put themselves through.

I applaud BIG for recognizing and admitting a mistake on his part. Also for looking for and accepting ways in which he can handle similar situations in a better manner. After all, isn't that what this board is supposed to be about?

Finally, I will end the ovation, by saying I appreciate his willingness to come on here and try to put himself in the shoes of the calling official. He asks what it is he would have done and what other officials would have done in similar situation. I would go a step further and try to walk a mile, or at least the length of the coaching box, in his shoes. How would you honestly react?

Since no one, AFAIK has seen him coach, I am not sure we can extrapolate that this is typical behavior for him. Needless to say, I give him the benefit of the doubt since he says it is not. One mistake does not a person make. Who amongst us would like our reputations and abilities judged by one action? Are the NCAA officials we discussed any less compotent b/c of a botched call? Hopefully, the younger/newer officials will learn from the exchange b/c there is a lot of meat here.

My previous posts in this thread were #4, #8, and #11. The sentiments which I express in those amount to what you wrote in the above post. You have a couple of other posts in this thread in which you write that I attacked you personally. I certainly don't believe that I did. Perhaps you will have the time to review my posts and then if you agree go back and edit yours.

You must call a helluva lot of technical fouls if you call one every time something disrespectful is said.

I dont get why officials who coach are treated different?

I treat a coach as a coach. His past affiliations do not matter per game. His actions during the game will dictate how i interact with him and how i deal with him as well.

I dont give anyone credit that just because they know the rules and have worn the stripes that all of a sudden they will be logical and calm when they had a stake directly in the outcome of the game.

Actually, most of the coaches know not to behave in such a manner when I am on the court at this point and so I have very few instances of disrepectful comments and the result is only a few technical fouls. It certainly makes the working environment more pleasant.

Just Asking ???
 

Little kid's game. During clock stopped, dead ball, little kid says, "Time out. Time out. I need to tie my shoe". You going to charge a time out? Same thing in high school subvarsity game? Varsity game?

Nope. I'm going to report two timeouts. And if there's an excessive timeout, that's a T.

In all likelihood, I wouldn't charge timeout in either case as I would be withholding making the ball live until the shoelace was tied. I know for sure I wouldn't charge one in little kids ball.

You ought to consider re-reading what I wrote.

He doesn't get a higher standard because he's a ref. He gets a higher standard because he told me he's a ref (hypothetically). There's only one reason, during a game, to tell me he's a ref; and it's not a good one.

As I said before, if I know he's a ref and he never says it, then the standard is the same as for his coaching behavior. My respect for him as an official is a different story, however.

I'd like to point out...again...that in addition to what Snaques (:D) said, the "higher standard" I speak of is NOT about how the coach is treated on the court.

I acknowledge I came on a little strong and it seems that we are more or less on the same page. I was surprised that a fellow official would be surprised that he is held to a higher standard of conduct by his fellow officials OFF the court. Clearly it seems that is where the misunderstanding lies.

Despite the attempts of some posters here, I'm not trying to crucify B2C and blindly support anybody. I'm also not calling him a bad human being or saying what he does "FOR THE KIDS!!!" is a bad thing either. :rolleyes:

Funny you ask this one.

Just after a throw-in, an MS coach says to me, "There's a shoe untied. Stop."

I let play continue. When I inform the coach that I'm not going to stop the game for an untied shoe, he replies, "they have before!"

This team from a different part of the state with a different association (albeit under the same umbrella). Different belief systems at different levels, particularly that level, I guess.

While I'll wait to administer a throw-in, I'm not going to stop play when the clock is running for a shoe. MS kids can learn to tie their shoes.

When I say chasing the ball, I was talking as a coach, meaning they were chasing the person dribbling the ball. Sorry.

Tell him that double knots will be a POE next year.