A few threads ago, there was comment about the rapant carrying the ball in NCAA.

What about the travelling violations? It seems like the officials use a random number generator to decide which ones to call!!

For example, players stepping out to catch a pass near the 3-point line will often catch the ball on one foot (the pivot, now inside 3-point land), step with the other foot (outside 3-point land), and then lift their pivot so that they can threaten a 3-point shot. This move is now commonplace. Even at the high school level it is something that is called only spuriously. Not only is this a violation, it also gives the ball handler a serious advantage.

Any suggestions on how to handle this situation? Has there been any mention of this at higher levels as a point of emphasis?

Comments??

David, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are describing a fall-away jump shot. I mean if you have the ball and you step back with your non pivot foot and lift your pivot foot as you are releasing the ball its good as long as the pivot foot doesn't touch down before the ball is released (like a reverse drop step).
If your mean he steps back with the non pivot foot and then moves the pivot foot (touches down) then shoots - it is clearly a WALK.

this subject comes up at least once a month.

As DrC accurately states, lifting of the pivot is not a travel. If the pivot returns to the floor before releasing the ball, then you have a travel.

...otherwise, every lay-up would be a travel.

Oops - didn't make myself clear.

Here's the scenario again. Player comes out towards the 3point line to receive a pass. Catches ball on one foot (now the pivot) while that foot is within the 3point line. Then places other foot outside the 3point line. What often happens at this point is that the player switches pivot feet ie. the foot outside the 3point line suddenly (and magically!) becomes the pivot foot. By switching pivot feet, the player can threaten a 3point shot. If that player had maintained the true pivot foot, they would not be able to threaten a 3point shot. Hence, this violation has clearly gained an advantage for the ball handler.

We all know this is travelling, however, it is done all the time in NCAA and is replicated at the high school level (check it out in the upcoming Final Four). Sometimes, refs call it as travelling. Often, it is not called.

Why is this violation NOT being called consistently? Should it be called??

David, I'm a novice, albiet not young, referee learning to referee under FIBA rules in Canada. Your description of the play has me a little confused so , for my own understanding, I'll try to break it down.
The player receiving the ball catches the ball on one foot ( lets assume the right foot )establishing it as the pivot foot inside the 3 point arc.
The player then places the non pivot foot ( left foot under my assumption ) outside the 3 point arc.
The pivot foot is lifted and a shot is attempted.
My interpretation of the rules is that if a field goal is attempted while standing or jumping off solely the non pivot ( left ) leg prior to touching the pivot foot back down then there is no travel and the attempt would be legitimate. However, if the original pivot foot ( right foot )touches the floor, presumably to attempt a jump shot for example, then it is in fact a travel violation precluding any field goal attempt.
Any feedback on my assessment of David's case scenario would be greatly appreciated

Hey Bull Ref Run,

Your scenario in the last posting would also be travelling. Your scenario is usually called by most officials as travelling ie. landing on both feet, moving one foot to establish a pivot and then moving the pivot. The case that involves landing on one foot (the pivot), stepping with the other, and then stepping with the pivot (to get outside the 3point line) is often let go.

Harper - Note: my scenario does not involve actually taking a shot, just threatening to take a shot. The whole idea (and you can check it out in the upcoming Final Four games) is that the person changes their pivot feet to gain an advantage further from the basket, often outside the 3point line. Oh, I have refereed FIBA for a couple of years out of Calgary and this same violation happens regularly.

Cheers!

David, as you described in your last reply,
IT IS A WALK. I see it happen sometimes and I don't know why they don't call it either. It's like the carry. They seem to call every other nickle and dimer. Maybe it is magic, rather than a slight of hand, it's a slight of foot. Let's be glad we don't have rabbits poping out!

What if he has both feet on the floor when he receives the ball. He has not established his pivot until he makes the first step back across the 3 point line. When he moves his second foot behind the line is that travelling? I've seen this a few times and I freeze. Help I need to thaw out!

Kudos to David. My son, who is an aspiring basketball player and soccer referee, is extremely knowledgeable about the rules and calls every pivot switch he sees. We both notice that it occurs at the 3 point line, as frequently as once every 5-10 possessions in some games. If no pressure on the player, there is never a call. They do call picking up the pivot foot on a drive to the basket fairly consistently, but not the pivot switch for a three point thrreat or shot.

David, I know the exact play you are talking about, and I am guilty of not calling it a travel. Next year, I am going to call it. It is a blatent violation, and needs to be called. I have a feeling that this will become a point of emphasis in the very near future, as more and more players are starting to do it.

What you are saying is that A1 catches the ball as if it's a Jump stop. A1 then can use either foot as a pivot. Say A1 steps back behind the arc with the right foot (making the left foot the pivot foot). When that left foot is picked up, that player in one motion
better be shooting or passing. If not, IT IS clearly Travelling!
At this time, I want to thank everyone who
responded to any posting I put up. This was my 1st year as an official Ref (i've been doing it for 5 years as a volunteer). I had a blast (despite some coaches confrontations).
I have umpired the past 5 years, so I was use
to somebody disliking calls. Tomorrow is the last day unless I do any Summer leagues. I hope everyone has a great summer and hopefully I'll hear from some of you in the baseball or softball discussion boards!!!
To once again quote from my favorite movie (Blazzing Saddles) - Keep the Faith Brothers.

To be clear on the violation that I see most frequently, it is a player who is cutting out from the paint area to the wing, does a 1-2 stop, with (for example) right foot touching inside the line first, left outside the line second, then using left as as pivot to drop step the right foot outside the line and square up for the three pointer. It is a bang-bang play, and seems to be a set motion that players have developed for popping out for a three. It is blatantly illegal but happens all the time in NCAA. I coach my players on maintaining the proper pivot foot after a 1-2 stop, but this bad example is out there on a daily basis during the college hoops season.

I hope this doesn't get confused with the play where as the ball comes up, on his dribble, and a split sec. before he grabs the ball he does get the second foot down, then steps back for the three. As you said it is a bang, bang play.

Say A1 steps back behind the arc with the right foot (making the left foot the pivot foot). When that left foot is picked up, that player in one motion
better be shooting or passing. If not, IT IS clearly Travelling!

What if the player picks up his pivot foot but does not put it back down, but is also not passing or shooting. Is it still a travel? Say just as he lifts his pivot he realizes what he has done and then just stands there with his pivot foot off the floor. Is that still traveling if he does not pass or shoot?

Legal. I saw a local D1 game Player did what you described, couldn't find a player to pass before he lost his balance and put his foot down. Official was on top of his game, offical waited til the player put his foot down, then called a travel.

Let's try one more angle to this scenario. Say the player has not used his dribble yet, lifts his pivot and can find no one to pass to. With his pivot foot still off the floor he begins his dribble. Is this a "delayed" travel call since the ball needs to leave the players hand on a dribble before the pivot foot is lifted?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Schmidt MJ:
Let's try one more angle to this scenario. Say the player has not used his dribble yet, lifts his pivot and can find no one to pass to. With his pivot foot still off the floor he begins his dribble. Is this a "delayed" travel call since the ball needs to leave the players hand on a dribble before the pivot foot is lifted? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a travel call, but it's not "delayed". As soon as the violation occurs, it's called.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrC.:
David, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are describing a fall-away jump shot. I mean if you have the ball and you step back with your non pivot foot and lift your pivot foot as you are releasing the ball its good as long as the pivot foot doesn't touch down before the ball is released (like a reverse drop step).
If your mean he steps back with the non pivot foot and then moves the pivot foot (touches down) then shoots - it is clearly a WALK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about those Panthers from Camden HS led by the # Junior in the country. Did you ever see him play?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrC.:
David, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you are describing a fall-away jump shot. I mean if you have the ball and you step back with your non pivot foot and lift your pivot foot as you are releasing the ball its good as long as the pivot foot doesn't touch down before the ball is released (like a reverse drop step).
If your mean he steps back with the non pivot foot and then moves the pivot foot (touches down) then shoots - it is clearly a WALK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How about those Panthers from Camden HS led by the # Junior in the country. Did you ever see him play?

Although I am not a referee, I agree 100% that this should be a travel, and thus called. I watch mostly NBA and some college and it disgusts me how everyone always travels.

It puts everyone on the same playing field if the rules were followed. You probably can't do much for the pro players, but you can still call it on those college players and younger.

This reply is in regards to the original question of the traveling at the 3 pt. line. This is something I've been noticing for a while which originated in the NBA. A good example is to watch Alan Houston catch the ball at the 3 pt. line. Every time, he catches it on his left and switches to his right. This has never been regulated in the NBA and filtered down to the NCAA and NFHS. I see it all the time in my D I games. I have called it and learned quickly to ignore. The fact is, we are the only ones who notice it. Traveling has become a call that seems to only result in a crowd reaction or obvious action. Not that I agree with the direction it's going, but I want to keep my job...and it's as simple as that! Stay with the 4 basics and you can't go wrong: Stay in your Primary, Trust your Partner, Referee the Defense and CALL THE OBVIOUS!!!

Wait a moment. I am something of a novice here, but I don't think that is a travel. In basketball, you are allowed to pivot on one foot (keeping it in contact with the ground and not dragging it), and move the opposing foot as many times as desired. If, however, the player elects to pick up the pivot foot, he may not place again down without a traveling violation. This makes two manuevers legal:

Jump shot
Layup

In both cases, a player has lifted his pivot foot after establishing it. In either case, if the player were to replace his pivot foot, he would be traveling. In other words, the standard for traveling is not the act of lifting the pivot foot, but replacing it.

Using that logic, a player attempting the often cited series of moves cited in this thread of stradling the 3 point line and shooting off his non-pivot foot is doing nothing more than a layup style series of steps from 22 feet from the goal.

Could this be why the officials at high levels aren't calling it?

- Duck

Duck -

This thread has dealt with a lot of what ifs, and in the scenario you describe, it is not a travel. In the one we have seen, a player is cutting out from the basket, does a one two stop, with the inside foot (obviously) touching first, the outside foot second. The player is still back to the basket, has by rule established the inside foot as the pivot, and has the pivot foot inside the three point line. He immediately pivots using the outside foot to get his other foot into three point territory. He establishes a triple threat position facing the basket, both feet on the floor ouside the three point line. Clearly a travel. Happens every D1 game I watch.

I agree with the BBALL21, however, that D1 refs probably can't call this every time down the floor. The only thing that would eliminate this is someone in authority wanting it to be a point of emphasis. As a coach, with this being a set part of offense, it leaves me wondering what I should teach my guards and small forwards as I prepare them for HS play. This maneuver is fundamentally wrong, but has become basic footwork for shooters who have to work hard to get free for a three.

Duck: The move being talked about here is the player catching the ball with his/her right foot inside the three point arc touching down first, then the left foot touching down outside the arc. The player then steps back with the right foot, places it on the ground outside the arc, and shooting the ball. Once the right foot touched down, it became the pivot foot. Once lifted and placed back down again, travel. It is not very often that you see a player lift the right foot and jump in the air or shoot off of one foot (the left) as you describe. Most times, and I agree it is often not called (why I'm not sure), is right foot down, then left foot down, step back with the right, step and shoot. This is a travel.

Oh, well, I was reading it as the pivot foot never being placed again. If the pivot foot is replaced as in the triple threat pose, it would clearly be a walk at that point. Who doesn't call this? More to the point, why?

- Duck

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duck1:
Oh, well, I was reading it as the pivot foot never being placed again. If the pivot foot is replaced as in the triple threat pose, it would clearly be a walk at that point. Who doesn't call this? More to the point, why?

- Duck<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Walter, Duck

There was another thread where D1 evaluations were discussed. One commenter told of his experiences at a camp where he called everything he saw in the first half, only to be told by his evaluators to lay off the trivial stuff and to call what truly matters. I think that, at least in part, it interferes with the flow of the game if you call everything. It is not clear to me what should be considered little or big. I guess that comes from the experience that these D1 folks have, and is why they make D1 and others do not.

I think the more difficult thing is, as certain regular violations begin to be accepted, knowing how to coach at the lower levels. We work footwork for the cut catch pivot and shoot, and have always pushed our players to do it right by the book. The game is different when you allow that extra step, especially against a tight defense. The illegal maneuver cited in this thread allows one extra moment to get the three point shot off because you step away from the defender. Near the sieline, especially on some HS courts, it is a little bit safer pass because you don't have to catch with both feet outside the arc.