First of all, it wasn't me - really. I swear it was my partner. Here's the scenario. Girls playoff game. About 40 seconds to go in 4th. Score, A-51, B-49. A1 bringing the ball up in backcourt against heavy pressure. My partner is trail. He is properly showing visible count. A1 is dribbling when B1 bats the ball. No doubt B1 touched it during dribble because it bounced about two feet away. A1 recovers ball by grabbing it with both hands. A1 begins new dribble. Partner blows whistle.

Immediately, he loudly announces that it was an inadvertant whistle and he was going to give the ball back to team A OOB for throw-in. Coach B yells for timeout and it is granted. He starts yelling AT ME! His point is that he should have been given a 10 second backcourt call, since there was never loss of team control by team A. He also yells that my partner stopped his count with the bat, but that much more than 10 seconds had expired. In both cases, he was correct, but there was nothing I could do about it.

To make matters worse, when he requested the timeout because he was angry, HE WAS ALREADY OUT OF TIMEOUTS! I very gingerly assessed the T, gave team A their two free throws (they made one) and the ball back.

Bottom line - team A wound up winning by five.

What a mess!

Mark,
I think we have all been in those positions where we say, "Oh, $#&%!"
Here's my story: I had a situation in a recent HS boys playoff game where Team A was inbounding the ball under Team B's basket with 2 seconds to go before halftime. A1's long pass down court was intercepted by B5. B4 requested a timeout when B5 gained control of the ball. I gave Team B the timeout they requested. However, when I looked up to the clock, it read 0.1. "Oh, $#&%!" I'm thinking. Needless to say, the coach of Team B was furious and thought I should have ignored the request. In hindsight, perhaps I could have. But my partner said there was about 1 second on the clock when I blew my whistle and 0.9 ran off due to the allowable lag time in Federation rules. When I blew my whistle, I really thought the Team B could have had a good chance at a last second shot. Fortunately, the timeout that the coach thought was "taken from him" didn't factor into the game.
Anyone else have some of these types of stories? Please share!!

Rough time for your partner to zone out. It sounds like you agree with the coach, but was it really 10 or very close to it? I know some coaches start griping at 6,7,or 8; and those last couple seconds seem to last forever. I hate when 11 or 12 seconds rolls off the game clock and my partner still hasn't made a call. You never know if the clock went early, or if he has a slow count. Either way, you need the old butt implants after the coach notices.

Mark,
I also had a question for you. I'm not a girls' official, so I don't know all of the rule differences. However, I thought that girls didn't have a 10 second count. I live in NY and I'm pretty sure that's a rule. Is it different in other places?
TGR

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TGR on 03-10-2000 04:20 PM
Mark,
I also had a question for you. I'm not a girls' official, so I don't know all of the rule differences. However, I thought that girls didn't have a 10 second count. I live in NY and I'm pretty sure that's a rule. Is it different in other places?
TGR<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few states had "goofy" rules for girls up until a few years ago, including my "sister" state of Washington (I'm in Portland Oregon), but as far as I know, all states now have the same at the high school level? Anyone out there in a state that is still different? I'm talking about high school, not college or pro.

Well Mark, I think I would go and find the assigning secretary that gave that guy a playoff game and string him up!!! It sounds like the guy shouldn't have been in the game in the first place if he can't get the simple ones right. Sorry about that experience but I hope you had some better playoff games after that!!

Well looks to me as if your partner missed one. Is that the only mistake that was made that night? You are correct team B did not gain control of the ball so the count should have continued, did you make any errors in that game?

I believe if you and the coach are going to blame your partner for that error, i must ask why in a close game would you not have done some preventive officating and informed the coach that he had NO timeouts left when he used his last one! When the coach was yelling at you, did you not talk to the coach and back up YOUR TEAM MATE!

Your partner had the basketballs to admit he had an inadvertent whistle, i wonder if the coach admitted he had an inadvertent timeout request.

Good Luck in the future.




------------------
Don

We've all seen tough breaks. As tough breaks go this was a so-so. At best team B did't get the chance to win at the end. Also, Alaska Ref had some good points. Instead of telling the teams how many time outs or no time outs, just tell the coach to check the official book concerning your time outs. Reason: what if, for whatever reason, you got it wrong and you tell the coach wrong. Nowhere in the mechanics does it say we are to tell the coaches how many time outs they have.

NYS highschool plays under NCAA rules with
a 30 second shot clock/no 10sec back court
and only 5 sec violation,holding only
anywhere on the court.
And if the coach wants a time out who are
u to decide if its a good idea or not.
give it to him

IF the coach wants the time out, however if he is out of Time Outs i don't think he wants a Time Out. If i know he is out of time outs, I will confirm he wants it after i remind him he is out of time outs.

Heey 'Bart' make up your mind, in one post you comment that it's not our job to inform coaches of how many time outs they have remaining (although it is considered good preventative officiating to do so).
In your next post you make the comment that you would confer with a coach of wether or not he really wants a time out when he no longer has any left?? (This is not described in the rule book either.)

If a player or coach request a time out, it is not for us to decide if they really want it, per the rules you grant the time out, if they have none available they still get the time out and also results with a technical foul, thats it plain and simple.

A little bit of 'preventative' officiating goes a long ways at preventing such situations, that's why most of us do it,
makes everybody's job easier.

My reply about confering with the coach before granting the T.O. was in response to the previous post which said he is out of T.O.'s. Preventive officiating is just effective by telling the coach to check book for his T.O's. I only do this when the score keeker tells me they are out of T.O.'s. By this time the coach is at lease aware he has used most if not all his T.O.'s. So you see, two seperate situations, NO contradiction. I do get my point to the coach without telling him a number.

Can I go back and ask a question that nobody has brought up. The lead knew there was say 40 seconds left in the game when they inbounded. When the trail blew the inadvertant whistle, say there was now 26 seconds on the clock. Couldn't the 2 walk away (meet at centercourt) and talk to each other and confirm this and call a 10 second violation ??? Are we there to get it right or to cover each other .... ??? Especially if the lead knew for a FACT that the 10 second vioation occurred.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bart Tyson on 03-11-2000 04:51 PM
Nowhere in the mechanics does it say we are to tell the coaches how many time outs they have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, actually the book says something like it is the scorer's responsibility to inform a coach "through an official" when he/she has NO time outs remaining.

Thanks Todd, You just had to pull the rule book out, didn't you? Way to go, now i have to change my mechanics. http://www.ereferee.com/ubb/smile.gif

Chels -

Don't mean to correct you but having refed in NY .... shot clock is 35 seconds and the ball must hit the RIM before shot clock goes off.

After reading the responses on this one I'd have to say I agree with Dr.C. If we know there was 40 seconds on the clock when the play began in the backcourt and if the clock was properly stopped for the "inadvertent whistle", then we should be able to see what's on the clock now and determine if there was a 10-sec. violation. Sometimes when its a close game and there is a situation like this and coaches are giving you an ear full, it's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and overlook what may very well be an obvious solution. Been there a few times myself.

I know in NCAA and i think NF both say the 10sec count is on the Official and not the clock. While it does make sense to look at the clock, the rule book says if 40sec on clock and the official counts too slow or too fast according to the clock-this is not correctable.

DRc.and MJ- Even if he/she blew the call, I don’t think I would/should ever ask my partner to change a call from an inadvertent whistle to a violation in this situation. While I think it is very important to get the call right, looking at the clock and doing the math shouldn’t influence the decision. In your example the clock ticked off 13 seconds and you think the inadvertent whistle should be changed to a violation. But...What if the your partner calls 10 seconds and only 9 ticked off the board? Do you ask him to change the violation to an inadvertent whistle? I agree with Bart, trust the call your partner made, all our counts are different. If the ncaa and nf wanted precise counts we would all be carrying stop watches. Although I shouldn’t say that, it might give someone on the rule board a bad idea.

Still have the question and would like an answer = I know that girls basketball in my area does not use the 10 second backcourt count. I'm almost certain this applies to NCAA women too. Why does girls basketball in your area use it?
--TGR

The best answer I have is the national federation has it as a rule, Ohio didn't modify it, so we call 10 seconds.

My guess is because we don't use a shot clock like the NCAA (and apparently some states) we will continue to call 10 seconds until the NF changes the rule. I have had a gut feeling for awhile that the NF will go to a shot clock in the next few years if they can get schools to buy into the cost of new or extra equipment.

Bob,
Thanks for the information. I am a boys' official in NY. We adopted the shot clock a few years back. However, as far as I was aware, girls' have always used the shot clock. So, when I saw Mark's original post, I thought it odd and wanted to get more information.
By the way, the shot clock is great in the game. I think it will be mandatory in the Federation Rules within the next 5-10 years.
Thanks Again,
--TGR

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TGR on 03-13-2000 04:05 PM
Still have the question and would like an answer = I know that girls basketball in my area does not use the 10 second backcourt count. I'm almost certain this applies to NCAA women too. Why does girls basketball in your area use it?
--TGR<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all areas have a shot clock (in fact, most areas do not have a shot clock for HS). The standard Fed rules are for no shot clock and a 10-second count. A better question (rhetorical) would be "Why does your area not use the Fed rules?) (Rheotrical -- I understand the pros and cons of both sides and am not trying to open up that discussion here again.)

Most places that use the shot clock adopt the NCAA rules -- for women, that means no 10-second violation, but there is closely guarded (holding, only) in the back court. Under Fed, there is a 10-second violation, but no closely-guarded call in the back-court.

Hope that's clear.

Be careful, because the 10 second count starts on CONTROL, while the game clock starts when TOUCHED. It is possible that the throw-in was touched but not immediately controlled. In that case, the time off the game clock is not the same as the 10 second count.

no 10 sec. count in backcourt for girls, and where is the partner support?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by henkeld:
no 10 sec. count in backcourt for girls, and where is the partner support? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you're talking about the original post, we do have 10 second backcourt for girls in this state, and I was watching the post play like I was supposed to.

I find all this disparity very interesting. I am a coach in Rhode Island. Here we have backcourt 10 secs, 30 sec shot clock, and closely guarded - held AND dribbling! This year I saw maybe two of each (I guess we really run and gun in RI).

My board has two states it covers. In one, there is a 30 second clock for girls, so no 10 second count, five second closely guarded holding and/or dribbling in frontcourt only. In the other, no shot clock, 10 second count. Closely guarded holding or dribbling frontcourt only.

size of basketball for men and women, same or not
 

Can you tell me if ncaaw and ncaam use the same size basketball.

Here in Cali the rules are:

Boys - 35 Sec. Shot Clock, 10 sec. backcourt, 5 second count on both the dribble and held ball ONLY in front court

Girls - 30 Sec. Shot Clock, no 10 sec. count, 5 second count on ONLY held balls FULL COURT

The disparity is a little annoying because most officials do both and occassionally we start counting when we don't have to.

Women's ball is smaller. But the rim is the same size...

Here in Manitoba we use Modified NCAA rules. Both the Mens and Womens play under same rules.

30 second shot, 10 seconds backcourt, and 5 seconds closely guarded dribbling or held ball full court.

The closely guarded makes for some interesting situations especially in tight full court defense. We have been given instruction to give some leway to the offense as long as they are advancing the ball up the court. I dont think I have ever called 5 sec violation in backcourt when someone was dribbling the ball.

While that may be true, this situation may not be as simple as a difference in counting between the official the game clock. The problem could have been that the official stopped his count on the tip. If that is the case, there should not be anything wrong with the partners talking: "Hey partner, did you stop counting when the ball was tipped." "Yes I did, but now that I think about it I should not have." "Okay since 14 seconds went off the clock and control and touch were the same, then we could conclude beyond any resonable doubt that the correct call is a 10 sec violation."

There should be nothing wrong with officials getting together and making the correct call after sharing information.