girls varsity game -- checking the book at the 12 minute mark, one of the starters is listed as # 8; brought it to the coach's attention; he said no one had ever said anything about her # and this was her second year on varsity; I told him if she changed jerseys now, no problem; but they had no other jerseys, so he sends her out to start the game; first time I've ever started a game with a T -- did I do this correctly?

absolutely!
 

Absolutely! You did it correctly! It is the team's responsibility to assure that the numbers are legal. We have to enforce those types of rules to maintain the integrity of the game. ESPECIALLY at the varsity level. Otherwise we'll have ridiculous numbers like they have in the nba and were never meant to be bball numbers!

just my humble opinion!

Just make sure that you penalize it correctly. In your game the T is charged to the player, not the head coach (directly or indirectly), and counts as a team foul.

I say this because a buddy of mine started a game with a T last week for a pre-game dunk. He is noted for calling Ts and so it was worth a good laugh for all of us that he had one before his first game of the year even started. He correctly charged it to the player and the team foul total, but didn't assess it indirectly to the coach and seatbelt him as an effort to show some compassion. He knew the correct rule, though.

Seatbelting a head coach for a dunk in warm-ups has to be one of the most ridiculous rules I know. Why is this singular act by a player used to penalize the coach and the whole team, where other acts are charged to the player only? It is a stupid thing for a player to do, but once it has happened, it should be a T and play the game.

Because the dunker is not a player! He is bench personnel until the game starts.

Chuck

I disagree. It's an indirect T on the coach because at that point, all team members are bench personnel. It's the coach's responsibility to insure that the players aren't dunking during warm-ups. I bet if his butt has to sit down for a game or two because of this, he'll create a little more discipline on the team.

Administration
 

How do you all administer a pregame dunking violation?

Do you blow your whistle and give the big T sign....

or do you causually walkover to the coach/table and inform the scorer personnel and the coach "For pregame dunking, we will begin the game with a Technical Foul against Team A. Team B will shoot two and have a midcourt throw-in. Team A will get the possesion arrow. The Technical Foul counts toward Team A's team fouls (player number ??) and indirectly against Team A's coach."

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Dec 11th, 2002 at 11:46 AM]

I casually stroll over to the dunker and inform him of the direct technical foul charged to him, then casually stroll over to his coach and inform him of the technical foul by his player and that he has an indirect TF charged to him, and that he must remain seated for the rest of the night, and then I inform the scorer of the TF's and how they are to go into the book.

I'm sorry, what did he do? I didn't notice -- I happened to be checking #34 for jewelry at that moment. I'll be sure to tell him to stay away from the rim.

Chuck

Pregame Dunk - A story
 

Boys V game.

Pregame warmups a kid goes up with a rock the house dunk.

I casually get the kids number and inform the table. I go to the kids coach and tell him we have a "T" on number XX for dunking, that's indirect to you and you are to remain seated for this game.

Coach is incredulous, mouth wide open and asks me "What number?!?" I tell him and he says, "Are you sure, that kid can't jump enough to dunk" I repeat the number and walk away.

Game is in the middle of the fourth quarter, team that got pregame T is getting blown out and the kid I T'd steals the ball near midcourt. The kid dribbles down alone and throws down a 360 dunk! It was pretty!

As I run back by the coach, he has this big dumb grin :D on his face. I'm kind of giving him "the look", he says "must have been working on his vertical lately"

Yeah, right coach......

I don't know nothing but was told
 

at camp this summer to follow Mr. Chuck Elias' motto. You might walk over and say "gee you really got some air on that last dunk but you might want to save some of those hops for the game since it's a technical foul to dunk during pre-game".

It seems like the board has been pretty consistent in calling this dunk as an automatic T. Let me also say though that if a player dunked and everyone in the house noticed and hooted/hollered, I'd T him.

I did a rec tournament last weekend and one of the teams had jersey numbers in the 70s and 80s. I asked the coach what the heck was going on and he said that the president of their rec league ordered uniforms for all 95 players in the league (all grade levels) and just had them numbered from 1 to 95!

I asked him how this person ever was elected or appointed president of their league if they knew that little about basketball.

He replied, "I don't know. You'll have to ask her."

(Sorry, Juulie - I just couldn't resist) :p

Just a small aside to this thread and knowing your involvement with a youth league – For the past several years we have been fielding around 200 +/- house rec teams in our winter program. Each number on a jersey cost us $1. We limit a team to no more than 8 players. (We have had some teams with a 9th “special” player) Let’s just say 8, so we had to pay an extra $2 per jersey for 600 jerseys. This is an extra $1200 (3X200X$2) a year out of our operating budget. We have changed our ordering so we now have the numbers 6, 7, and 8.

I guess that I just regard all T's on player to be a result of bad judgment by players. Players who routinely exercise bad judgment are a reflection of a lack of team discipline and will get more Ts. But most cases of bad player discipline do not result in a coach being seatbelted.

The pregame dunk can be a one-time action, the coach has no opportunity to correct it that day, and he is already seatbelted. If a player acts up on the bench, it is not an automatic T and the head coach has the ability to correct it (like saying shut up - I'll deal with the ref!). In the dunking case, the coach could tell the player he is benched for the night 1 second after he dunks, but with that one dunk the coach is already seatbelted for the night.

I understand the bench personnel thing - but the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime, IMO.

The local middle schools here in my area have a "no-cut" policy for athletics...consequently, they always have 5 or more teams at each grade level (one is considered "varsity"), and so have kids out there with numbers like 114, or 120...that's always fun...and they actually have a waiver from the State saying they can...

"How can you call a T on us for dunking in warmups,Ref?The guy that we had last game warned us first!"

Were you serious,Chuck?It's no problem if everyone in your association has the "blind eye".It is a problem if it's being called differently,game-to-game,by different officials.Nobody then knows what to expect on any given night.JMO

JR-
"Geez ref last game I was not called for a player control foul, the defender was called for a block."

We are all individuals, we all have the same rules...but we do not all have the same judgement or interpretation of the rules.....I am not saying I agree with Chuck....But each one of us is an individual and each situation is unique...no matter how common something may appear....It is not going to be called the same by everyone.... Just look at the jump stop or the attempted jump stop!

AK ref SE

Alaska,there's no judgement or interpretation involved in calling pre-game dunks.You either call it or you don't call it.Consistency is the problem,not judgement.The point that I was trying to make was that teams have to know what to expect.If half of your officials call a certain type of jump stop legal,and the other half call it a violation-the player using that jump stop won't have a clue as to what they can do or not do.Neither will their coach-or the other coach.

That's a valid point, and as someone else mentioned, if there was a "bring the house down" dunk that simply could not be ignored, then I would probably call the T. But generally speaking, I really am more concerned with uniforms, jewelry, etc than looking at the rim during warmups. My earlier comment was half-joking; but only half. If a kid dunks and I don't see it, nothing happens. If a kid comes out for the jump ball with his chain and illegal t-shirt, then the game is delayed.

Chuck

Excuse my ignorance, but why is #8 an illegal number?
I referee FIBA rules and #8 is legal.

Two hands
 

Any number that you can't make with one hand is illegal in NFHS (that would be a '5' for most of the population). 0 and 00 are also legal, however, you can only have one or the other.

Mregor

I know this is a recent rule change, but I just don't follow the logic in this. For example, why then can you have both 1 and 11, 2 and 22, 3 and 33, 4 and 44, and 5 and 55 on the same team?
Is it somehow more confusing to the poor officials to have both zero and double zero?

No, it's confusing to the poor computers that keep the stats. To a computer 1 and 11 are different numbers, but 0 and 00 are the same number (they're both just zero).

Chuck

Re: Two hands
 

There was a big league pitcher (for the Dodgers maybe?) recently who had 6 fingers on his pitching hand. Gave his pitches wierd movement. Then there's Mordecai "Three Fingers" Brown. Then there's anybody who chops down their Christmas tree immediately after the office Christmas party. . .

As the father of a 7-year old, I've seen Monsters, Inc. several times. And one of the LOL moments the first time I watched it was when an off-stage crew hand holds up one hand with all his fingers extended and says, "Ok, we're on in 7. . .6. . ." It was just a great visual gag. Very funny. If he reffed, the teams could use numbers up to 77!

Chuck

Great explanation Chuck! I never thought of that.
Funny, though, that they figured it would be easier to change the rule than to change the programming in the stat computers.

Sure it does. The coach is responsible for his players before the game begins as well as after the game starts. The coach should be telling the players not to dunk. If they do and he's seat-belted, I bet it doesn't happen again. Besides, a coach can perform his/her duties just as well sitting as strolling.

Z

Re: Two hands
 

I sure hope we never have a four-fingered ref for my college team - some of our best players (men's and women's) have the digit five somewhere in their number. :p

And, while we're on the topic of people with a "different" number of fingers - My name is Intingo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!

Re: Re: Two hands
 

Seems to me, you should be wanting four-fingered refs. They could never report a foul on the players with 5's in their numbers!!

Stop saying that!!

Re: Re: Re: Two hands
 

Yes, but someone had posted that any number that couldn't be flashed by hand was illegal. It's really not fun to start a game with a bunch of technical fouls.

..and then there are international teams..
 

Today I was working a tournament here in Tx that had a team from Mexico playing and they had some illegal numbers like 9, 6, 19, etc.... but I guess they play by FIBA rules down there, correct?

Technically in FIBA, the only legal numbers are 4 to 15