2011 Tournament Discussion Redux
 

Trying again...

TX has 2 Canadians. Both from the GTA.

Who is the the African-American on the Texas game? Looks like he borrowed Sanzere's shirt.

JRut.

I know Jrut and he's no Jrut

Sen. Lloyd Bengsten takeoff.

Kentucky Basketball
 

What's up w/#34? Was he wearing white socks that were above his knee? Or was he wearing compression leggings down to his ankle? I know in NFHS, compression pants can not extend below the knee. What about NCAA? Or were they worn for a medical purpose?:rolleyes:
While I am on the topic. A player from the womans Middle Tennessee team was killed just the other day. I believe it was stated that thery were wearing her number on their shirts in memory. Is a 2nd number allowed in NCAA?

No idea, Zooch.

But I can tell you that it was simply great yesterday to see academia win out.

Great, I tell ya!

I'm referring to the scholar/athletes of Kentucky narrowly besting the scholar/athletes of Princeton in their athletic contest.

If anybody missed it, the replay is on tonight....on Pros vs. Joes.

End of UCLA and Mich. St. last 3 seconds.
 

End of UCLA and Mich. St. - last couple of seconds.
From my view V1 catches the ball with both feet off the floor, step right foot, then left foot, pushing ball to the floor, then right foot touches floor again.

(Correct my description if neccessary.)

I don't think the described play is travilling. The official called it a travel. I have no horse in the race, but would like a more expert opinion. I am open to being incorrect. Regardless, someone please teach me or confirm my thinking.

JRut looks like Lloyd Bengsten too? :confused:

I think he meant FLOYD Bengston.

The right foot became the pivot foot because that was the first foot to touch the floor by the airborne player.

You did not mention when the right foot was lifted from the floor after he took a step with the left foot.

If the right (pivot) foot was lifted *before* the ball was released on the dribble, it is a travel.

If the right (pivot) foot was not lifted before the ball was released on the dribble, it is a not travel.

(Not sure if you're a referee or not. If you, then you should know to include all crucial information!)

JRut looks like both Lloyd Bengsten and Floyd Bengston? :confused:

It was a travel, no doubt about it. Official was slow with his whistle but he nailed the call.

I guess if they're twins.....

Used to officiate - quit due to time constraints just as I was beginning to get serious with it. I still lend my time to the local Upward (1st - 6th grade) basketball program.

Thanks for the correction. You spurred my to re-read the jumpstop rule (NCAA). I was incorrectly thinking there was some crazy jumpstop rule that gave him the extra step.

Did they show this on purpose?
 

With 4:47 to go in the Arizona - Memphis game this afternoon on CBS, the score was tied and an Arizona player gets called for a foul. The camera pans then over to Arizona HC Sean Miller to get his reaction and he's picking his nose! :eek:

I always find that comical. Usually see it during baseball games with all the bored bench players and bull pen guys just a hangin out!

JRut and Lloyd Bengsten and Floyd Bengston are twins?:confused:

Wouldn't they have to be triplettes?

Bad BC call to start the UNC-LIU game.

Early in BU/KU game Glenn Tuitt calls a basket interference or goaltending. Defensive player puts both his hands on backboard on either side of the basket but I never saw him touch the ball or the basket itself.

LIU player bringing the ball up the floor. Straddling the division line, he batted the bll that was still in the BC back to his teammate. Doug Shows called BC.

Chat is open...JugglingRef and I are there.

Trivia question for you...

Which team has the player with the highest GPA?

BLOWNCALL|GIFULMINATION

I think this falls under my basic rule of contact when the ball gets swatted into the stands is incidental unless I think it is the contact that allowed the ball to get swatted into the stands in the first place.

I think this is an easy no-call.

Ohio State. Diebler's GPA is infinity. :D

Clearly contact on the shooter's right elbow before the block. Beats the hell out of me why people think such a play is legal.

Because the contact was not the reason the shot ended up in row eight.

Also, contact is not necessarily a foul. And while it is clearly before the block when the play is slown down to about 1/4 speed, at full speed the contact and shot pretty much appear to be simultaneous. Certainly close enough to be considered essentially simultaneous.

Finally, look at the position of Williams hand *before* the contact - that ball had zero chance of going in the basket whether there was contact or not.

I am no NCAA official, but I am pretty uninterested in calling blocks like this a foul unless the contact is either severe, or very early, or it is obvious that the contact is what allowed the shot to be blocked to begin with (impedes the shooters ability to get the shot up and over the defender).

No but the contact clearly disrupted the shot, after which it was swatted into row eight.

You would really call that a foul, seeing it at full speed?

Here it is at full speed. The contact is basically simultaneous with the block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwRzNFJ67oM

Probably not, but if the foul had been called, it was justified. As to the "zero chance of going in" part, that is debatable, and, by rule, not relevant.

Disagree. The shooter is at an angle and leading with his right elbow as his jumps. The contact is from the shooter extending his elbow. The defender does not slap the opponent's arm, rather the leading elbow contacts his body as he is jumping. I don't have a foul on this contact.
We can't penalize a defender when the offensive player extends an arm and contacts him.
The block following that action is definitely clean.

I've had issues getting into the room, I'm gonna try computer #3 later today......

PS - So, Mr. Obama went 15-1 yesterday in his picks, Michigan won the game without foul shots......Tsunami's. earthquakes! Sheesh!

Pitt/Butler
 

The foul against Butler with time expiring was either the worst call I have ever seen or the guttiest.
Not many officials would blow their whistles in that circumstance. I am still not sure there was enough contact to make that call, but kudos for having the balls to call it. That one was big time.:cool:

Hindsight..Good call....Statement still stands. Very few have what it takes to make that call.

Teams have scored with less time going full court in the tournament. You have to give the player the chance to play the ball. Easy call to me.

Can't wait for a week of "swallow the whistle talk." The Pitt kid on the rebounding action really gave the ref no choice.

I guess when James Madison said to officiate until the game is over, the officials took heed.

Both calls were good calls. If you don't have the balls to blow either of those fouls, I don't want to be on the floor with you.

That had to be two of the stoopidest fouls committed that I've ever seen. Absolutely dumb!

Don't kill the messenger. He did his job...and did it well.

There was 1.4 seconds on the clock. Can you give me an example of any teams that have gone full court and scored in 1.3 or less?

The first call was correct. Player was forced into either a travel or OOB by contact. No choice but to call a foul. Second one should have been ignored. Even IF you can make a case for a foul in that situation, the score is tied with little chance of a score absent a call. Leave it alone, play 5 minutes more and then any call or no-call becomes moot.

Had one team been ahead, you can argue the foul. If there's a chance for OT, absent the prevention of a valid scoring attempt, go to OT. There's no advantage gained by grabbing an arm 90 feet from the basket with about a second left. No one here has yet made the case for such an advantage. Ordinarily, without an unfair advantage in a contact situation, we're going to leave it alone.

Then why grab the arm?

That's why we have the chat room LOL
St Joe's coach had a great comment: "This is about young guys in pressure situations making bad decisions. This is not about the guys in stripes.""
Also, did anyone see the Butler press conference? They asked Mack what he was saying on the FT line to the Pitt player and he said he was asking "Where are you from? I'm from Lexington, KY". "What is your GPA? Mine is 3.0" etc. When you watch the replay, darned if that isn't what he is saying!

I thought of Christian Laettner's shot in 1992. Looked it up. 2.1 seconds for that one.

Even the NCAA Head of Officiating told Ernie Johnson those were both fouls that needed to be called. I have to agree. And I'll bet the official that made those calls will be working next weekend!!

Tate George

That's a piss poor reason not to call a foul on a team, especially when you've just called a foul on the opponent in a similiar situation. That was a foul, whether there's 1.4 or 19:59 left. If you don't call it, you cheat the team that was fouled. I haven't read anything online where anyone said it wasn't a foul.

"Dumb loses more games than smart wins." - Bobby Knight

Excessive Foul Called in UC/UConn Game
 

Kemba had a breakout. #32 for UC attempts to block. Makes body contact from behind while Kemba is in the air and then fouls him going for the block. Both officials signal what I assume to mean excessive and not intentional. Seemed correct to me but I do not know what the wording of the NCAA rule is. Can someone paste it for me?

Google NCAA Basketball Rules.

The talking heads asked John Adams how do you explain that call to Pitt fans (paraphrasing here) "Don't foul that far away from the basket with little to no time left."

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Got it. It just said "if it's excessive."

Any guidelines/ideas on what you're looking for to determine if it's just a "hard foul" or it qualifies as "excessive?"

I disagree. I thought the second foul was much more obvious...But I feel both were warranted.
It is interesting getting different perspectives. I would love to see these same plays replayed, only with a variety officials put in the position of the call/no call.
There would be a huge variation in personal judgements....
I love the human element of officiating.

I've had an excessive foul when players try to make that block from behind, but the contact through the back is waaay before the block attempt.

Yes, B1 was playing the ball, but he made no attempt to not go through airborne A1. That's contact that must be curtailed/discouraged.

Does anyone have a link?

Without seeing the play, this is the worst argument against a call I've ever read. Players make half-court shots to win regularly, and if he was prevented or slowed from doing that with illegal contact, then it should be a foul. The percentages of the shot don't matter, either.

To shy from the call just because the score's tied and overtime is an option is just, well, Nevada would call it cowardly and I wouldn't disagree.

Amen. A couple of my friends on Facebook have started in with "let the players decide the game" crud. I have half a mind to pick a fight with them. :D

The players DO decide the game, Fortunately, they have high quality officials present to enforce the rules.:)

PLUS! There was also contact to the head, which you could only see on one replay. Definitely the correct call, IMO.

rule questions:

1. A1 throws in from his endline. B1 touches ball after it is released; ball deflects down onto the endline. official whistles, points at endline and whistles A1 for a throw in violation.

setting aside the fact that he missed B1 touching the ball, is that just an ncaa rule? that is, in Fed rules, is there anything wrong with inbounding the ball with a bounce pass that first hits a boundary line?

2. do NCAA rules have a different definition for what constitutes a kick? in Fed, the contact has to be intentional right? seems that there are times when a team A player tries to force a bounce pass into traffic. the ball strikes a team B player's foot and they call it a kick.

of course, I could be missing the intentional leg movement. but it seems there are times when it happens so fast that the team B player doesn't move his leg at all. (doesn't even have time to react, in fact.) just wondering if NCAA doesn't require the intent.

So untrue, its ridiculous. There is no regularity with a HALF court made shot and maybe one or two ~80 foot shot PER YEAR in all of basketball -- high school and college. Its extremely rare, especially in championship play. When it does happen, the shooter is almost always facing the basket and has both hands and arms available, unlike this situation where the player had only one. I have called a 3/4 court shot attempt shooting foul before when the guy almost got tackled when trying a late shot. I'm well aware that such a foul can happen.

He wasn't. Watch the tape: he quickly realized there was going to be a foul called and he just heaved it. The foul called was a common foul, not a shooting foul, so even the official realized he wasn't in the act of shooting.

You can name call all you want, but I stand by my point: there was no advantage gained and the call shouldn't have been made. If the NCAA director thinks there was, fine. We disagree. But I'm not going to support the call just because an official made it and it was supported by the brass. I've had missed calls supported publicly.

My point about OT was simply a "when in doubt" decision tree. It wasn't meant to justify not making a call that SHOULD be made. We don't run from correct calls. If you thought that's what I meant, you were mistaken. What I meant was, if you are in doubt -- and 90 feet from the basket, you should have at least a little doubt on an arm grab with less than a second when there is significant body contact in the lane that goes uncalled all game -- you can pass on the call, we go to OT, and we start all over.

I have made calls 90 feet from the basket before VERY late in the game. I wish I had some (1-2) back, but I stand by others (2-3). Had this been me, I would have wanted this one back.

I agree. But this has nothing to do with my point.

Everyone that has argued with my post has still not made a good case for there being an advantage gained with the late arm grab. Do you call a shooting foul when a an out of control offensive player drives the lane, throws up a prayer, goes down mainly due to being out of control, but there was contact on the play? I don't. There are many other times we let contact go uncalled. Why must this arm grab be called? What advantage was gained?

RE: Duke/Kentucky: several problems with this comparison:

-- Duke had a timeout; neither team here did.
-- Duke was inbounding the ball with players in Duke's frontcourt; there was few or no Butler players in Butler's frontcourt.
-- Duke's clock started when touched inbounds AFTER the pass down court; Butler's clock started on the touch and would have run out with ball being passed.

Not saying it hasn't happened, but you will be hard pressed to find an example of a team winning from 90 feet with a running clock starting at 1.4 on the tip.

If you believe your statement in red above, you have to argue to not call the 1st foul either....player was in the backcourt with his path cut off with 1.4 seconds on the clock....what possible chance could he have had to score? :rolleyes:

The advantage is that the Butler player was actually trying to throw the ball at his basket and was prevented from doing so. If you can tell me that there is no way it could EVER go in, then I'll concede.

However, you should note that I've seen a guy falling/diving OOB near half court in an attempt to save a lose ball....facing the sideine....flip the ball towards his basket with what resembled a football snap (but not between his legs, just to the side) and it went in the basket....after a stunned moment, I signaled a 3.

Could that be because the Pitt player was hanging onto the other one?

Both were fouls. Both needed to be called. John Adams said as much.

These are the moments for which we are paid.

I do believe next season, either one referee will stay on the floor to observe, or the teams will be directed to the bench area when the crew is looking at the monitor. JA was not happy seeing the talking on replay.

Btw, after the missed BU FT, with under a second: the 80' heave hit the rim.

Pitt could have avoided that foul if the coach had taken his players off the line after the 1st free throw. At worst it goes overtime. Just saying. I didn't really see the last play. Did he hack him across the arm?

9-2-2: The ball shall be passed by the thrower directly into the court.......

@Texas Aggie, here is some video footage of why a foul should be called.
The worst foul in tournament history? Pitt’s error hands Butler win - The Dagger - NCAABBlog - Yahoo! Sports. Pause it on 26 seconds. If a foul is not called, Butler player might not secure rebound and Pitt throws up a prayer and goes in. That is why a foul should be called there.

This shot is clear and no doubt a foul.

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Surprised nobody has mentioned the officials names yet.

I was talking about the first foul, so we seem to agree on that.

On the second, I agree with you that there was very little chance for Butler to score and that it would have been unprecedented. Which is exactly why it was so dumb for the Pitt player to foul him so blatantly right in front of the official. Fouls are called all the time on the shooting team 94 feet from their defensive basket on free throw rebounding action. Under your definition of "advantage," which seems to be limited only to whether a player could score, there is never advantage on those plays either, but they walk to the other end to shoot in the bonus. I'm not seeing why it should be different.

It was a tie game. Pittsburgh kept its players in the lane on the free throw for a reason -- because there was enough time for them to try to win with a basket even if the free throw was missed. The player committed a foul in a situation where gaining possession might have given him the chance to win the game.

First time I ever wanted to quote him here:
 

"I'll see your stupid foul, and I'll raise you."


ESPN's Jay Bilas

ESPN article clip:

“We do it every day,’’ crew chief Frank Higgins said. “It just happened to be a crucial part of the game. You have to do what you have to do as an official.

“If we get it right, we’re good. If we get it wrong, we’re deadbeats and we’re all over 'SportsCenter.' We did what we think is correct.’’

The truth is, it was the two teams that made the mistakes.

After Smith’s would-be game-winning basket, Pittsburgh threw the ball in toward the sideline, right in front of the scorer’s table and Shelvin Mack went with Brown when he went for the ball.

The ball went out of bounds but before it did, official Terry Wymer raised his hand, signaling foul.

“I was so mad at myself,’’ Mack said. “I went to the huddle and my teammates were telling me to keep my head up, but I couldn’t believe it.’’

Until that point Mack hadn’t just been Butler’s hero, he’d been their superhero. He scored 30 points and absolutely dismantled Pittsburgh’s defense from the arc, where he hit 7-of-12 3-pointers.

When the foul was called, Brad Stevens looked as upset as the preternaturally calm coach has ever looked, throwing his arms and grimacing toward the officials.

But Butler long has been a program of no excuses. Yes, their budgets are smaller. Yes, the odds are against the. But no, they don’t really care. So while they may have been stunned that the officials sent Brown to the line with two seconds left, they weren’t complaining.

“I told Shelvin, there’s absolutely no way he can put himself in that position,’’ Nored said.

Added Stevens, “If he was impeding his progress to get the ball, then it’s a foul.’’

Brown went to the line and sunk the first free throw to tie it at 70. But then the 78 percent free-throw shooter missed the second.

In between shots, Dixon elected to keep his players under the basket, rather than pulling them back, a decision that seemed harmless at the time but later would prove fatal to his Panthers’ season.

“Everybody is going to question that, but I did what I thought we should have done,’’ Dixon said. “I wanted our shooter comfortable and I didn’t want to be pulling our guys off the line while he was going for his second shot.’’

As Brown’s missed freebie fell to the right side of the rim, Howard went up to get it. Nasir Robinson came up behind him and when the two landed, Antinio Petty raised his fist.
==================================
I'll note that John not Frank is the correct first name for Higgins and that on the foul by Butler both the Lead and the Trail had a whistle and were calling a foul.

;)

There was a similar play with more severe contact to the head which makes a better textbook example in the Utah St./Kansas St. game with about 4 minutes left.

I thought the one in the UConn game was could go either way based upon the level of contact, but the NCAA made protecting airborne players a POE a couple of seasons ago and this is the type of play they were talking about.
The NCAA brass wants this called intentional.

Reading your post leads me to believe you're a Pitt fan.

The no-call doesn't become moot if Butler ends up losing in OT because you didn't do your job properly in regulation.

You have to call the foul. A foul is a foul is a foul. It doesn't matter it the clock says .003 or 19:59.

The officials cannot (read : should not) call or ignore fouls based on who is ahead.

No Advantaged gained? Last time I checked, grabbing ones arm might drastically effect their ability to grab a rebound. You cannot wait to see the result of contact at a such a crucial juncture in the game to see how "severe" the disadvantage was. Grabbing an arm of a rebounding player is obvious.

If there is contact that puts the offended player at a disadvantage, we need a whistle.

I agree with others on this board- you gotta have guts to call these types of fouls at anytime in the game, especially late in a tie game.

Wait For NCAA Interpretation ...
 

NFHS: Kicking the ball is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot. An unintentionally kicked ball is never illegal, regardless of how far the ball goes and who recovers it.

Right. We don't. You do.

I'm ok with both calls. That being said I'm not sure what the call is on the 2nd one.

- Its clearly not a shooting foul as the official only gave him two.
- I'm not sure it can be a rebounding foul. Since he ends up with the ball and lands with strong position. If that much contact on a rebound the defensive team ends up with is foul then there is a foul on every rebound from jv boys basketball up.
- I assume it is because his arm is tangled making it difficult (impeding?) Howard from making a clean quick play. The fact is because of the time Howard is needing to make a quick turn or escape when in others he may just stand strong and keep his balance. If he's making a regular rebound and rip for the outlet that much contact may not disadvantage him/his team in this case though . . . I can only assume that the inadvertent holding at this point is the foul. Which if that is the case, is the right call.

Tough break for the Pitt kid who probably felt like there wasn't enough time for anything to happen beyond a tip.

And let that be a lesson to you all.......
 

We had a nice discussion on this last night as it developed. I believe the word "WOW" was used 17 times by various posters!

Good, healthy discussion.

The Adams studio interview directly following the action was excellent IMO.

LOL! Even you admit it was a foul by your writing.

That's because foul was on the rebound. His arm was grabbed and he was pushed as the landed with the ball.

You're wrong. It was a foul. Yes, you're entitled to your opinion but your opinion is wrong.

+100.

Great call. Just like that no-call with Moorehead on defense. Advance those 2 guys!

Same rules in both. But, the benefit of the doubt goes to "kick" in the second play.

Interesting!

Checking out some sports pages this morning, the exact same talking heads that crapped all over Higgins et al for not officiating to the end in the St. Johns/Rutgers game are currently crapping over the guys in this game for officiating to the end.

Golly gee, why aren't I surprised?

Considering how quickly John Adams criticized the Big East officials last week without even seeing the play your statement has no merit.

John Adams is far from a "support my officials at any cost" type of guy.

Nice euphemisms :rolleyes:

The Pitt player intentionally grabbed Howard's arm the moment Howard grabbed the rebound. I think at that instance the Pitt player had a brain fart and thought his team was still down.

It would appear that Texas Aggie is a dead tree in a forest full of woodpeckers. I'm going with the woodpeckers on this one. Easily.

Okay, having seen the play, especially the backboard angle, great call.

1.4 is plenty of time to grab, turn and throw if you're not being held.

Dumbest. Foul. Ever.

I thought previous Butler one was but this one is the new leader in the clubhouse. Dumbfounded.

Tate didn't go full court, Scott Burrell threw a court length in-bounds pass from underneath the Clemson basket, Tate caught it in the corner and in one motion shot it.
As the headline read in the next day's Hartford Courant..."It's Late, It's Great, It's Tate!!"

all time NCAA buzzers beaters

Top 10 NCAA Final Four Buzzer Beaters of All Time


Jean......thanks for photos of your crew, looks like you folks work well together. That said, too much ball watching.

Uh, moderators?

Is it my iPad or is there porn on this thread?

I already reported it too. I also went in and put that idiot on ignore.

d. Intentional personal foul. An intentional foul shall be a personal foul that, on the basis of an official’s observation of the act, may be purposeful or reactionary and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Causing excessive, nonflagrant contact with an opponent while playing the ball;
2. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting;
3. Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score;

thanks! if i'd had my book I could've read the case play that specifically addresses this:o

I know this has been talked about in the past, but am I the only one who thinks it's dumb to not use Precision Time during the tournament? It seems like that would solve the vast majority of the clock issues.

It was talked about last week. No one really had a sensible reason why the NCAA couldn't pay to use the system at all of its venues.

Verbal warning for Michigan's bench at around the 5:00 minute mark of the first half. Official actually blew his whistle to hold up throw-in.

While I admire your (and everyone else's) enthusiasm for reporting this, I'd appreciate it if you did NOT report it. It just clogs up my inbox.

I check here as often as I'm able, and delte the spam when I see it. Reporting it doesn't get it deleted any sooner.

(Now, if I miss something, and it's there for a day or two, then, please, report it.)

(And, I check the general, baseball, basketball and testing forums. If it's in another form, then report it.)

On the end of the UNC/Washington game -- is the clock operator supposed to stop the clock when the ball lands or when an officials signals that play stops due to OOB?

When reviewing on video, what are they looking for? When the ball actually touched out of bounds or when it was signaled out of bounds?

When the whistle blows.

1. How in the world is the clock operator supposed to see when the ball lands?

2. John Adams addressed this on TV. IOW, always listen to bob.