T-Worthy?
 

Similar question to a recent post about T-ing a player who, in frustration with himself, slammed the ball hard to the ground. Most seemed to agree this was not T-worthy since it wasn't directed at an opponent or official.

Similar situation: boys HS varsity playoff semi-final. Early in first half player A1 drives to the basket, gets fouled and the ball circles the rim and eventually falls off. By the time the ball falls to the ground, A1 is now in front of me at C position in front of the B bench. When he sees the shot miss, he drops the F-bomb loud enough for me and the B bench to hear. B coach wants a T. Waddya got?

T

Was he saying because he missed the shot or because he thought he got fouled?

I still say I would have to be there. I could see passing on this or calling a T depending on the context or other actions.

Also who cares what the coach wants. The coach would go crazy if you called a T on his player for something you could not explain, so I tend to not care what they have to say about any T.

Peace

This is likely to be a regional thing, but I have yet to work in an area where an F-bomb loud enough for the opposing bench to hear is anything less than a T. If it can only be heard by me and a couple of his teammates, I'll give him a quick reminder to watch it (I always see the apologetic body language when I do this).

But come on, Jeff, you wouldn't be able to explain this pretty quickly?

"Coach, he dropped an F-bomb that was loud enough I can't ignore it."

I did not say I could not explain it, I just want context. Let me put it this way. If I am in one setting if I T'd every kid that used a bad word, I would have 10 Ts a game (and throwing out multiple fans). If I went to another place, the use of that language would be unusual. And I would have no problem saying something to the kid, but giving a T is not always the right thing to do. Again, when the NF wants to put in certain language as a T, then I will follow that. Until then, I have discretion on these things. This would definitely be a "talk to" if I did not give a T.

Peace

Fair enough, but I thought the context was pretty clear in the OP. Player gets fouled. Foul gets called. Player watches ball roll off the rim, then drops the bomb. I'm assuming he's frustrated with the missed shot since he got the foul call. Even with that benefit of the doubt, he gets the T around here. And most coaches would then proceed to sit him for a bit. I understand there are areas you work where a T on that would get laughed at.

But regardless, no where in the OP is any ambiguity that could lead one to say he couldn't explain the call if he made it.

I'm pretty much in this camp. "Coach, he dropped the F-Bomb and that's unsporting."

I too have told a few kids, "Watch your mouth" when an expletive was mumbled under their breath or there was no one around. I'm not gonna be a plumber here. (No offense to our plumber friend. :o)

Automatic no-brainer "T" in my area. And Lord help any of our officials who won't call it.

T, and an obvious one at that.

I know this isn't that relevant to HS, but if this happened in our local kids rec league, it's an automatic flagrant technical with ejection. If it came from a coach, it would also include a one game suspension and if it came from a parent, that parent would be ejected and not allowed back into games for the rest of the season.

Harsh? Well, it's been this way for many years and it fits in with our policies regarding sportsmanship.

If it's that loud?

Sorry, but when they can hear it on the sidelines, it's pretty much automatic in every area that I've ever heard of. And I know you don't really believe in POE's either but the FED has been pretty explicit on how they want inappropriate laguage called. From just one of several POE's on it over the last few years:

The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. ....Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. <font color = red>Being angry at oneself is no excuse.</font>

I can see using a little discretion if it's not that loud. But if it can be heard in the stands, it's an automatic "T" in high school ball just about everywhere afaik.

T. No option, that's required by the NCHSAA. That's not basketball.

I have T'd every single F-bomb I have heard--none have been solo nobody else could hear it. And I have never had a coach 2nd guess me when I said,"F-bomb".

JR you can quote POEs all day that does not mean that we all will use the same standard or examples as what produces a T. I know kids that call each other things that are inappropriate, but I would never consider those to be something that is an "automatic" T. The POE is created by people that do not have to live in an area and do not understand the cultural, social-economic and social expectations from different areas. I also do not recall in your POE it says the loudness matters. Or what about if a kid blows out their knee and they start cursing (I have seen this one personally), are we T'ing that too?

How about this, is "D@mn" not OK? Better yet, what about "God D@mn?" Is "Sh!t" not OK? Is one player of the same race calling another player on their team a "slur" not OK? Or does it say only "F" bombs are over the top?

I am not telling you to call what you feel or that you are wrong. I am just saying my standard is not the “F-word” and that is so bad but all other words are OK. That is why context to me and loudness does matter, but not the only factor. To me it has got to be louder than the bench hearing it too. Maybe people in the first three or four rows, but not just the bench IMO.

Peace

If kids hurling f bombs at each other is ok, your social-economic system needs adjustment. We can't change the world, but we can control our little part of it. Call the T.

Jeff, I've talked to officials from sea to shining sea and they all pretty much say the following is fairly accurate in their area:

Automatic Techical Foul for Inappropriate Language(such as Fshots):
1) directed at an official or an opponent
2) loud enough to be heard in stands

Judgment Used:
1) not loud enough to be heard out of the immediate vicinity and not directed at an official or opponent.
2) extenuating circumstances like an injury.

And you want to know what is amazing to me...fwiw? I've had officials in your area agree with that also. So, I guess we'll just have have to differ on this one.

Does anybody else call it differently in their area that what I've said above?

You work games for the same price you have for almost 20 years and you are questioning what I do in my little neck of the woods?

Irony!!!!

Peace

First of all I have never heard anyone but on this board talk about "automatic" Ts. To me that is like saying always or never. Not a term I hear any evaluator, supervisor, clinician or fellow officials that I work with use that term. I know as a clinician when I see something that happens, I might discuss how I think a situation might be handled, but I cannot recall using the term “automatic T” with any judgment action. And I actually am more likely to call a T in this situation, but what did the kid do before? Have I warned that player previously for anything? Is this early in the game? Have we passed on other similar language with the other team? Has my partners had to address other issues with this player. All of that matters and context is what matters to me.

And the OP did not say the comments could be heard in the stands or directed at an official, he said it was heard by the bench.

Also how loud you think it is based on a lot of things. I said I was in a gym last week where I could not hear a whistle. So this is why context matters to me. I probably want more than the bench to hear something like that to make that call only based on that word.

You do realize that the people you might be referencing "in my area" may not work for the same people I do? And I know of not a single person here that works in the "areas" that I do either across the state. And if that is not the case, then you would have to tell me who they are. I think that must be noted.

I do not know, you would have to ask them.

Peace

Based on the OP info above, I'm going with the less popular answer of a quick talking to. No mention in the OP of anyone in the bleachers hearing it, etc. The same response I would give a team B player in a similar situation, btw.

For crying out loud, Rut. The OP was pretty straight forward. I'm normally with you on the "no-automatic" T's issue, but the OP was specific enough and straight forward enough. You're just reading too much into it in order to take an opposite opinion. It's your right, but good grief.

Certainly a relevant point. Nice job, Rut.:rolleyes:

Go for it, but I can tell you if the coach for B ran that complaint up the chain, I'd be working small school JV games (I won't tell you what gender) for a year. Loud enough for any opponent to hear is too loud, IMO.

And the "I'd do the same for you" response wouldn't fly here, either, as that coach would rightly expect a T to be called on one of his players for doing that.

Well I did not say it was not straight forward. But it did say only the bench heard it. I need a little more than that when giving a T if I hear language than the standard as to what the opposition bench heard. And if the coach protests, then I will tell them "Do you want me to call a T for every time their kid uses any form of foul language." I was just around someone recently where their teenager used some words on a regular basis that I would feel uncomfortable using as an adult now around certain people and family member.

No one has answered yet what is the "F" word so over the top but other words seem to get a pass? If the goal is not to allow kids to use any "foul language" then all words should be "automatic T."

I did not ask you to like the standard I hold for crying out loud. ;)

Peace

If you are going to tell me what moral code I must hold, then be prepared for that same argument to be made. This is more of a moral issue than a rules issue. "Profanity" standards do not apply the same across the country or even Religious communities.

Peace

Yeah, actually you did, when you said you needed more context. Perhaps you misspoke.

I doubt it, though..... :(

I did need more context to give a T, but that does not mean it was not straight forward. It said only the bench heard. That is not enough for me alone. And I also did not say I would not give a T at all, the context was other things will factor in matters to me.

I really do not know why you are trying to convince me what I should do? If you want to call a T, go right ahead and knock yourself out. I want to have more situational awareness before this is a call for me.

Peace

This is not about a moral code. It is about acceptable public behavior. Do the kids in school use the f word in their conversations in the classroom in your area? I doubt it. And if you do consider it a moral issue, this triggers you to bring up financial issues. Makes sense.

Acceptable public behavior changes based on the community you are in and a moral standard. It might not be a Religious one, but a moral standard.

You need to get out more often. You think every kid is put into detention when they use "foul" language in all school districts or levels?

You said:

And if you are worried about what standards I use, why did you use not my personal standards as to what games you worked in your area? I did not invoke in this thread what standards you should use. Actually I can live with whatever you do here. I simply am saying that I want more than "heard by the bench." And I do not believe in "automatic Ts." I think everything we can use our judgment is subjected to circumstances.

Peace

You do realize that they also may work for the same people you do? You do realize also that they may be the people you work for?

And you know I won't name names on this web site ever.

And if it's loud enough to be heard in the stands? Automatic "T" or judgment?

Kid at your neighborhood high school drops his book on the floor. Says "Oh, f***!" loud enough for the teacher to hear, and nothing happens?

And you think this is a good idea?

I have no further questions.

Do you think I would likely know who those you are talking about? There are only so many people here from my area that you could be talking about.

I give you more credit than that or really did not expect you to give a name. But I think I am aware of who works for whom and why they work for them as it relates to this area. It is not like it is a secret. And if some of those worked where I did and had no place stay that is not a hotel, they would be crazy. ;)

Peace

Doesn't matter to me F Bomb is automatic for me.

I have only read the first page of post and feel that I cannot wait to jump into the fray.

There is no context to examine in the OP. This is a no brainer and is definitely what the recent NFHS POE's have addressed.

Ladies and germs (I mean gentlemen) I have been on construction sites all of my adult life and even before that. I have heard every profane word that one can think of and:

a) If you have no hair, I can make you grow it;
b) If you have hair, I can make it fall out;
c) If your hair is straight, I can curl it; and
d) If you hair is curly, I can straighten it.

I think you get my drift. And the OP is a TF every time. There is no excuse not to charge A1 with a TF.

MTD, Sr.

I'm spending too much energy trying to figure out what you're saying to actually try to convince you to do anything. Second, I'd never try to convince you to do anything anyway. What you're doing is working for you, apparently.

Profanity regardless of who it is directed at, if it is loud enough for the fans to hear, our bosses around here want a T.

Yep!!!

Peace

Yeah, then I'd go with the "T." I know it sounds like splitting hairs, but I guess for me this is a HTBT.

I think it's more a case of different circumstances than splitting hairs.

I should add, what you're saying could get a lot of officials in trouble; apparently even in your area.

Let me say this. We do not work here for one guy and one association and that assigns 50 schools. We could work 10 or 12 different conferences where each conference might be assigned by a different person. And if I work for one suburban conference, I might not work another suburban or city conference. So there are assignors if that was my explanation for giving a T, that might not be accepted very well if that was the first incident and only the "bench" heard the words. These often are handled by with a "talk to" and then if it happens again it might get a T, but not in the context that I read this. Some assignors would support you; others would want to know why you did not handle the incident the first way. So I do not know where you think I would get in trouble for this?

Peace

Where did I say you'd get in trouble? Frankly, I'm assuming you've managed to work yourself into a high enough stature that you probably wouldn't get questioned too hard either way on an issue like this. Unless, perhaps, you completely ignored it and didn't even address it.

I said other officials could possibly get in trouble for following your advice; based on JR's (whose word I trust) comments that some assigners in your area would want this called.

Automatic T for me. Help the kid learn self control, I'm sure his mother would want you to give him a T.

All of us are one call away from being back to where we once were. And not giving a T does not mean it will not be addressed. It just will not be addressed with a T automatically.

I did not give anyone advice. I told you and everyone what I was going to do or not do. And said where I work that might not be the best avenue to say this is an "automatic" T.

Peace

I work in a conference where they tell us profanity = T. I work in other conferences which tell us to manage the situation as we see fit.

In a HS game, I would probably call a T.