player control verses Intentional

[stewcall]

Forgive me for this question- perhaps it would never happen, but it's bugging me.
Intentional foul is a personal or technical foul
Player control foul is a common foul
So
A1 an airborne shooter who releases the ball but has not touched the floor commits a flagrant foul on B1 which is excessive in nature that can not be ignored and is ruled intentional in nature. The shot is good


My question: Does the shot count and B1 gets two free throws and then B gets the ball closest to where the foul occurred
or
Is the shot canceled due to the fact that A1, an airborned shooter who has not returned to the floor commits a foul and should not be allowed the basket(since the foul was committed before he touched the floor) and B1 gets two shots and then B gets the ball closest to where the foul occurred.
Ok my big brother said- Stew get real this will not happen- call the player control foul-wipe the shot and award the ball to B for a spot throw-in.

I was just trying to understand the types of fouls- and being an intentional foul I was trying to understand if the fact that the offensive player with the ball affects the shot differently between a common foul, an intentional foul and a technical
thanks
2 more days to my Part II test
Stew in Virginia

[ScottParks]

Originally posted by stewcall
Forgive me for this question- perhaps it would never happen, but it's bugging me.
Intentional foul is a personal or technical foul
Player control foul is a common foul
So
A1 an airborne shooter who releases the ball but has not touched the floor commits a flagrant foul on B1 which is excessive in nature that can not be ignored and is ruled intentional in nature. The shot is good


My question: Does the shot count and B1 gets two free throws and then B gets the ball closest to where the foul occurred
or
Is the shot canceled due to the fact that A1, an airborned shooter who has not returned to the floor commits a foul and should not be allowed the basket(since the foul was committed before he touched the floor) and B1 gets two shots and then B gets the ball closest to where the foul occurred.
Ok my big brother said- Stew get real this will not happen- call the player control foul-wipe the shot and award the ball to B for a spot throw-in.

I was just trying to understand the types of fouls- and being an intentional foul I was trying to understand if the fact that the offensive player with the ball affects the shot differently between a common foul, an intentional foul and a technical
thanks
2 more days to my Part II test
Stew in Virginia

This is a little confusing, but to simplify, if airborne shooter A1 fouls B1, the the ball is dead and the ball belongs to B. If you rule that A1's foul is flagrant (although I can't picture this), then you eject A1, give B1 2 shots with the lane cleared, then the ball at the point of the foul.

You changed from flagrant to intentional in your post, but I don't know how you could get an intentional foul by an airborne shooter, but I'm sure the more experienced guys will be along to help.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, if the foul by A1 is flagrant (or intentional, for that matter), then it is not a player control foul. Part of the definition of a PC foul is that it's a common foul by a player in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter. So it's not a PC foul.

So. . . if he shoots the ball, then he punches B1 and then the ball goes in, do you count the basket? If the foul were a PC foul, the answer is obviously no. But if it's not a PC foul, then the ball remains live. I would want to wipe away the basket, but it looks from the rule as though you would count it.

If the ball doesn't go in, then it's easy. Eject A1, give B1 2 FTs and then give B the ball at the spot of the foul.

I will ask my board interpreter about this tomorrow, and see what I'm missing.

Chuck

[BktBallRef]

You're not missing anything. If the foul is ruled intentional or flagrant, the basket counts.

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Ok, if the foul by A1 is flagrant (or intentional, for that matter), then it is not a player control foul. Part of the definition of a PC foul is that it's a common foul by a player in control of the ball or by an airborne shooter. So it's not a PC foul.

So. . . if he shoots the ball, then he punches B1 and then the ball goes in, do you count the basket? If the foul were a PC foul, the answer is obviously no. But if it's not a PC foul, then the ball remains live. I would want to wipe away the basket, but it looks from the rule as though you would count it.

Chuck,
I agree with your assessment.
With the explicit exception of a player-contol foul, once the ball is in flight, the ball continues in flight on it's own merit.

"If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted."

If the shooter is charged with an intentional or flagrant foul (batting a defender up-side the head on the way down, pushing a defender after jumping on him), then I think we no longer consider the player an airborne shooter, but merely an "off-the-floor thug".
I further agree that I would enjoy cancelling the basket, but, like you, I think we may not.
The reason this is not a casebook play, I imagine, is that it would be very lucky for a shooter to score while intending to foul a defender on the way down. It would be very rare indeed.
mick

[stewcall]

Thanks for the replies! Makes me feels good that I understand fouls! or at least the rules of the foul
Stew in Virginia

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by mick

Chuck,
I agree with your assessment.
With the explicit exception of a player-contol foul, once the ball is in flight, the ball continues in flight on it's own merit.

"If the ball goes through the basket before or after a player-control foul, the goal shall not be counted."

If the shooter is charged with an intentional or flagrant foul (batting a defender up-side the head on the way down, pushing a defender after jumping on him), then I think we no longer consider the player an airborne shooter, but merely an "off-the-floor thug".
I further agree that I would enjoy cancelling the basket, but, like you, I think we may not.
The reason this is not a casebook play, I imagine, is that it would be very lucky for a shooter to score while intending to foul a defender on the way down. It would be very rare indeed.
mick

Ahhhh, but Mick it is a case book play! 4.19.6 D Although, it doesn't explicitly tell you to count the basket it does say:
Is it possible for airborne shooter A1 to commit a foul which would not be player control? RULING: Yes. The airborne shooter could be charged with an intentional or flagrant personal foul or with a technical foul.

So, Mick, Chuck, and BktBallRef are all correct. No PC, we must count the basket. Damn these guys are good!

[mick]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Although, it doesn't explicitly tell you to count the basket ....

Yeah, I imagine that was the point stewcall's post.