The ball will belong to the team whose player was offended after the free throws. The arrow will not change direction.

In a YMCA Junior High game my partner called a held ball. Upon break-up one of the two involved in the held ball fired the ball into the back of the kid he was tied up with. This drew an automatic "T" and tossed him from the game. My question is after administering the free throws for the "T" do you determine possesion by the arrow or give it to the team who's player was offended?

do you think the throwing the ball into the back of the opponent was flagrant enough to toss the player?

Bart the rules in this league ar very strict and absolutely no swearing or demeaning acts or behavior are permitted from coaches, players, or fans. If the officials don't handle an unsportmanlike act the table officials can also act and assess a "T" or remove the participant. It's a great league to work.

To bad all leagues can't adopt this policy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bart Tyson:
do you think the throwing the ball into the back of the opponent was flagrant enough to toss the player?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. We cannot tolerate this behavior. If you simply give a technical then another player might think that he can get away with this as well. Toss the player and you should not have the problem again.

Bradley, so what you are saying is, anytime a player tosses the ball at an opponent, your going to call a flagrant T?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Geneva">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bart Tyson:
Bradley, so what you are saying is, anytime a player tosses the ball at an opponent, your going to call a flagrant T?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bart, are you saying that you would not T a player up if he throws a ball at the head of another player? If not what would you do?

I got slammed on an earlier thread for my opinion on this situation.

I think you need to use common sense to determine if the act was flagrant, but it something needs to be called. Personally, I feel if the other players' back is turned, it is flagrant. They have no idea that ball is coming, have no opportunity to get out of the way, and it could cause serious injury or a brawl. I think there is no difference in throwing the ball at the back of a player and throwing a punch. It is intentional and dangerous.

Now if they were facing each other, and A1 throws one of those short,hard chest passes I probably would not consider this flagrant.

What does Mr. T think???

No, throwing the ball at the head of an opponent wasn't the subject. The word "throw" is relative. I've seen players flick, toss, throw. Its not the word you use, its the whole play. Speed, projectile, location of contact, intent, mannerism, etc. Also, the i was asking about a flagrant T. Yes, if a player winds up and throws the ball at opponents head, its a Fragrent T. But, if the play is such that two player on the floor fighting for the ball and after the whistle, out of frustration, the player flicks the ball at the opponent, and it ends there, then i'll call a T not a Flagrent T.

Brian,

opinions are like butt holes everyone has one. So speak your mind so we can all learn from it. But remember some of the ego's in here a pretty big, and some of the guys here have never made a bad call!!!!!!

Clay- Like any sport, hobby, career, or group I you will find some egos, but I don't think there are any bad refs, just zebras who are still getting seasoned and need experience. It may seem like some guys "have never bad a bad call", because I think a lot of these situations are hard to discuss since we cannot see them. All we can do is speculate. Like the kid who had the offensive player take out two defenders. Without seeing the play, it is presumptuous to say it definitely was block, charge, or no call. The defenders may have had position, they might not have. There are so many things that go into that play one cannot begin to hope to know them all. We can only give him advice on how to “see” the play next time to make the right call. That is the beauty of being a 1st year official, you get to learn from your experience and that of your partner’s. I know there are plays I call differently now than 5, 6, 7, and even 1 year ago.

On the current subject; the whole flagrant T is such a tough situation to call, because of the penalty. Like Bart said, so much of the call is intent and circumstance. My opinion was based on if they wound up or threw the rock with some intent and velocity. If there was no ill intent or if it was just a frustration flick, save yourself the paperwork and hit him/her with only one T. You should be able to recognize the difference, and they get the message. Plus, more than likely the coach will get his pound of flesh next practice. It is a very big penalty to a player and a team to flagrant T a player; you have to make sure you can back your call up. I have no problem booting a player or a coach, but I make damn sure it is the right call and I’m not just reaching for it on emotion. Your profile doesn’t mention how long you have donned the stripes, but that is something I have learned over the years.

Brian, Excellent commentary! Hey Clay... what's with the big, ugly, chip on your shoulder?

Each official must determine what is and what is not flagrant. I believe in this situation (throwing the ball a the players back) that I too would call a flagrant foul.

In most cases where the players are looking at each other it warrants an immediate 'T'.

Also, we do have big egos as officials and like to think that we are the best. When you stop doing so, then maybe it is time to take up another profession.