first time posting...(I've gained some great insights from the participants here - thanks!)
My question regards question 68 on the refresher exam:
on a designated spot throw in, A1 passes the ball diagonally toward the boundary line. B1 deflects the ball while it is on the OOB side of the line. Answer says the official is correct in assessing a T on B1.
Rule 9-2-11 says the opponent shall not reach through the throw-in plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass. The way the question is worded, I take it that the thrower HAS released the ball and therefore the defender can then reach across and deflect the ball. Am I missing something? I'm also wondering how this rule squares with rule 1-2-2, where if there is less than 3 ft of unobstructed space outside any sideline or endline...it says the restraining line marked on the court 3' inside that boundary becomes the boundary line during a throw-in "until the ball crosses the line"...once the thrower-in has released the ball in this sitch, is the restriction off for the defender to contact the ball?

Good question, I'm waiting for the answer from some of the masters.

It has always been my opinion, although no one here shares it, that:

1) the restriction on breaking the throw-in plane ends when the throw-in is released, BUT;

2) the restriction on touching the ball does not end until the ball crosses the boundary line.

These are listed as different violations in the rules, but only the restriction on breaking the throw-in plane is specifically said to end when the ball is released.

Chuck

mdray,
Welcome!
I agree with you that the ball was released and that there is no violation, no less a T foul.
The effect of the restraining line is only to move the throw-in plane away from the obstructed space; all other related throw-in provisions apply.
mick

Chuck,
Well, certainly the college interpretation is clearer in that:
<LI> "The opponents of the thrower-in shall not have any part of their person beyond the vertical inside plane of any boundary line before the ball has crossed that boundary line."

With that rule, the player cannot be there or touch it.
Simple and effective.
mick

True, but the reason people disagree with me is that I also apply my above-mentioned distinction to HS rules. Seems like nobody agrees with #2 for HS application.

Chuck

Yes...that's my view as well Chuck.

Call it the way you want.
 

However, I'll bet "nobody" is gonna run over to you to change your call, either. ;)

mdray,

You are correct in you interpretation of the rules! I had a situation last year that you want to watch for when applying this rule: made basket by B1. Time out team A. Team A allowed to run the baseline. A1 attempts to pass the ball behind the endline to A2 and A3 is racing toward the frontcourt. B2 tries to intercept the pass behind the endline. This is a T because the ball was not released for the throw in. I have never seen this before in 10 years and probably never will again, but if that ever happens to you you will be ready.

Here's the problem I have always had with the interpretation that once the ball is released toward the court the defender may break the plane but must not touch the ball until it crosses the line:

What other reason would the defender have for breaking the plane if not to touch or grab the ball? If you let him break the plane at that point, aren't you encouraging him to touch the ball?

I think the rule should be either that both are a violation or neither is a violation (or technical). I do agree that if a defender reaches across and hits the ball before it is released, it should be a T.

IAABO'S interpretation of the rule is that you can not reach thru the boundary line plane after the ball is released and touch the ball after it has been released-on the out of bounds side of the throw-in boundry line plane. However, I have several "written" NFHS interpretations that says in NFHS a player can reach thru the line and hit/touch the ball after it has been released by the thrower-even if it has not crossed the boundary lne plane. One place you can find it is in "The Officials Guide: Basketball '99-00--High School & College Rules, Caseplays & Differences". There is a case play that specifically deals with this play. It says that in College it is a violation and in NFHS it is not a violation--to reach thru the boundary line plane and touch/hit the ball after it has been releassd by the thrower. Here in our state it is not a violation. But as someone said, who will know the difference--even officials can't agree on the rulng.

Questions/Rule references?
 

How about this situation.

After a made shot, A1 has the ball out of bounds and had the endline to run if he wants. A2 steps out of bounds on the other side of the key. A1 throws to A2 (both OOB).

B1 reaches OOB and hits the pass.

Simply OOB off of B1 but now a spot throw-in for Team A? Or a Technical foul?

The same ruling ought to be applied to both situations hadn't it?

What if B1 reaches through the plane and catches the pass? Is it now his ball to shoot or Technical foul against player B1 again?

DownTown -
as I read the rule, it allows the defender to break the plane after the ball has been released "on a throw-in pass"; the passing of the ball between A1 and A2 in your sitch is not a throw-in pass, so I would call the T

DownTown,

Please see my situation that I described. Under the rules, if you attempt to pass behind the endline after a made basket, that is not an attempt to throw in the ball. Any touching of the ball by the defender would be a T. On the other hand, if they touch it after B2 attempts the throw-in, it isn't a T. We don't write the rules, just try to interpret and enforce them.

I have always believed that DTTB's situation with the OOB to OOB endline pass is a T on B. For that reason, I think that NFHS ought to disallow anyone reaching over from IB to OOB to touch the ball - if you are on one side, stay there til the ball gets there. However, reading the rules, I agree that once the ball is released toward the court on a throw in it seems that you can touch the ball on either side of the boundary plane.

This means that you must differentiate between a throw-in and an exchange between two OOB players after a made basket.

How about a last sitaution for fun: after a made basket, A1 takes ball OOB, B1 had fallen OOB after taking lay-up, B1 going back on court as A1 passes along endline to A2, ball hits B1 in the head, bounces onto court where B2 steals ball and makes layup. What do you have?

Gentlemen, please notice, however, that nowhere does the rule say that the player is allowed to touch the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass. The defender is allowed to break the boundary plane, perhaps due to his momentum carrying him toward the inbounder. But nowhere is the prohibition on touching the ball while it is still on the OOB side of the boundary plane lifted.

Chuck

Chuck -

thanks for your point; does it specifically say (for HS now) in the rule book anywhere that the defender, at no time, can touch the ball while it is on the OOB side of the plane?
e.g - say there is 15' of room behind the endline and the thrower-in backs up and throws a baseball pass...the defender can not intercept that pass if he catches it on the OOB side?

Hawks Coach

You are as sharp as a tack... this is tough, (I do not have rulebooks handy)
This is what I have.... NO BASKET, Team A has a spot throw-in at the location the ball hit B1.

OK, seasoned veterans... rip my answer to shreds.

My response to Hawks coaches question would be......First of all B1 had not established inbounds status so a ball deflecting of his head to in bounds would be an out of bounds violation! I would probably blow the whistle.....Give the ball back to A and give him/her the end line.......If Coach B gets upset let him know that you could have called a T for his player touching the ball on the OOB side of the line! Just a guess! But that is what I would do...until someone on the board corrects me!

AK ref SE

I agree with your ruling. But, I don't think that was the intent of the question with respect to the explanation.

It would probably be coach A complaining that their was no T. In that case, I would tell coach A that the intent of the rule that warrants a T is to prevent B from trying to intercept/block that pass. B has the right to get back inbounds from the previous play and is even required to get directly inbounds or be at risk for a T. For that matter, you would have to call the violation (warning) on B for even being across te line during the throwin.

As you concluded, a simple violation on B for toucing the ball while OOB.

What about the loss of running the baseline for A based on B being out of bounds and contacting the ball? If I am A's coach, that might concern me more.

Well, I'm not completely sure, but here's what I do know. Rule 10-3-12 says a player shall not "reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touch ro dislodge the ball as in 9-2 Penalty 3". Notice that there is no mention that this prohibition ends upon the release of the throw-in.

9-2 Penalty 3 says "If an opponent(s) of the thrower reaches through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touches or dislodges the ball, a technical foul shall be charged to the offender. No warning for delay required. See 10-3-12 Penalty."

Again, the penalty is a T, and there is no mention that you can touch the ball after the ball leaves the inbounder's hands.

So I guess you have to make up your own mind. But to me, this says once the inbounder lets go of the ball, you can jump over the line, but you still may not touch the ball.

Chuck

....I saw this...
 

I witnessed a Veteran Official call a team warning for delay when an opponent of the Thrower-in slapped the ball out of the throwers hand.
The opponent might have taken a swipe at the ball first without hitting it but in any case there was no whistle untill the ball was hit.
The Veteran Official's partner, a rookie, came up to him and said..."There is no team warning in this situation, it is an automatic "T"!!
The Veteran Official calmly looked both at his partner and the Thrower-in's Coach and explained:
"Per Rule 9-2-11...the opponent(s) of the thrower shall not have any part of his/her person through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary-line plane until the ball has been released on a throw-in pass." (This guy had a photogenic memory) He went on to say, "Per the PENALTY section of this rule...the first violation of the throw-in boundary-line plane by an opponent(s) of the thrower shall result in a team warning for delay being given...one warning per team per game."
The cagey ol' Veteran was building up to his following statement..."Since the PENALTY section states that the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs, I HAD A DEAD BALL WHEN THE OPPONENT FIRST BROKE THE PLANE AND BEFORE HE EVEN TOUCHED THE BALL!!! Since this is the opponents first "violation" for breaking the plane...it will ONLY BE A WARNING!"
The Rookie Official looked at the Veteran and shook his head saying, "In that case a team would never get a "T" for their "FIRST" slap of the ball because you are saying they broke the plane, thus a violation, before they ever even hit the ball!!!????"
"That is correct", the wiley Vet said.

Dude
P.S. (Maybe I saw this in a dream....) ;)

that veteren official must have missed the T that was called in a NCAA final four or two game a couple of years ago for the same thing. I do not believe that veteren official got that interpretation from any interpreter. Interpreters rule it the other way. They are two different acts and the penalty for each act is different. The act of violating the plane does not automatically cancel the touching even though that vet believes so. He is wrong.

Agreed. Although the rule could be wriitten beter, I believe that is the intent of it.

But for those of you looking for a reason to throw a T, be my guest! ;)

This requires a precise reading of the rules:
 

I believe the correct call is a throw-in violation on B1. B1 has violated 9-2-10: ...Be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.
B1 has not violated 9-2-11 since no part of his body was "through the inbounds side of the throw-in boundary plane," his entire body was on one side of this plane. This is not the same as being on the inbounds side of the plane and reaching THROUGH (read as intersecting with)it. He is merely on the other side entirely!
Notice also the language used in 10-3-12: "...Reach through the throw-in boundary-line plane and touch or dislodge the ball..."
B1 did not do this either. Therefore, no T is warranted.

So it is Team A's ball on the endline for what would be a designated-spot throw-in, but last year this rule was changed. 7-5-7 now says, "A team retains this privilege if the scoring team commits a violation or a foul and the ensuing throw-in spot would be on the endline." Since B1 violated, Team A may run the endline on this throw-in.

Chuck, that has to include me, too.
The wording of 9-2-10 is what convinced me. As long as that defensive player is in bounds, it's a good play in NFHS.

Re: This requires a precise reading of the rules:
 

I believe the correct call is a throw-in violation on B1. B1 has violated 9-2-10: ...Be out of bounds when he/she touches or is touched by the ball after it has been released on a throw-in pass.
[/B][/QUOTE]I politely and respecfully disagree with the above assertation!

As Mr. Elias and several of his peers have so so ably pointed out already,B1 was not struck by a throw in pass,per se.A throw in pass is one that is released directly into the court,as per Rule 7-6-1. B1 was stuck by a legal OOB pass between team mates on their end line,as defined in Rule 7-5-7.

I must commend you on your diligence in attempting to resolve this rules dilemma, but unfortunately however-in this particular case- you are wrong,a$$hole.

If anyone happens to be offended by the previous post,may I suggest that they do the following:
http://gifs.net/animate/setupz.gif

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Dec 9th, 2002 at 04:11 AM]

Obviously, I wasn't very precise!
 

I have to agree. Missed that subtle point.
Now I stand by my reasoning for no T, so I must either call a violation for 9-2-11 or nothing. I guess it depends on your definition of "through." I may be willing to consider B1 through the boundary plane here.

PS You get a 10 on the humor meter!