The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 12:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 173
Shot goes in, then push foul. How often?

Instinctively, reactively, I seem to be calling these a lot lately.

A1 puts up a shot, as it is in the net, or already through (good basket) A3 is pushing B1. I have made this foul call several times lately, including once tonight in our youth tournee 8th grade girls playoff. I count the basket, report the foul and B team inbounds.

My question is how often do others make this call, -vs- letting it go?
__________________
Every time you blow your whistle, 50% of the people LOVE you, and 50% of the people HATE you.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 12:30am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
By rule, the ball is dead after a made basket and contact is ignored unless you rule it to be intentional or flagrant. And by rule it'll be a technical foul.

Most likely I'm letting the play go unless I HAVE to get it.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 12:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
By rule, the ball is dead after a made basket and contact is ignored unless you rule it to be intentional or flagrant. And by rule it'll be a technical foul.

Most likely I'm letting the play go unless I HAVE to get it.
I knew I was kicking this somehow.

In tonight's game, I blew it before I saw that the shot was long over and made. Nothing int/flagrant there, so maybe could have gone IW.

I don't know why I have no problem going no-call during a dead-ball while we are inbounding (unless, as you said, int/flagrant), but I have had trouble lately holding back after a basket.

Something "I" need to work on.
__________________
Every time you blow your whistle, 50% of the people LOVE you, and 50% of the people HATE you.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 12:44am
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFussRef View Post
I knew I was kicking this somehow.

In tonight's game, I blew it before I saw that the shot was long over and made. Nothing int/flagrant there, so maybe could have gone IW.

I don't know why I have no problem going no-call during a dead-ball while we are inbounding (unless, as you said, int/flagrant), but I have had trouble lately holding back after a basket.

Something "I" need to work on.
Once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in, it's live. So I'm not sure what you mean here.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 12:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
Once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in, it's live. So I'm not sure what you mean here.
Ah, this brings me to a question I have been meaning to post....

NFHS, when IS the ball at the disposal of the thrower?

I have heard multiple different answers to this.

A) In their hands once OOB endline.

B) In their hands regardless of whether they are OOB.

C) On the floor but available to them.
__________________
Every time you blow your whistle, 50% of the people LOVE you, and 50% of the people HATE you.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 01:01am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFussRef View Post
Ah, this brings me to a question I have been meaning to post....

NFHS, when IS the ball at the disposal of the thrower?

I have heard multiple different answers to this.

A) In their hands once OOB endline.

B) In their hands regardless of whether they are OOB.

C) On the floor but available to them.
Generally it'll be A if the throw in team doesn't delay in getting the ball. Otherwise, if the team is not prompt in getting the ball and out of bounds the count will start (which means it is at the disposal). Sometimes that means it's at the disposal when the ball is on the ground or while a player has the ball in his hands but still inbounds.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 01:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer View Post
Generally it'll be A if the throw in team doesn't delay in getting the ball. Otherwise, if the team is not prompt in getting the ball and out of bounds the count will start (which means it is at the disposal). Sometimes that means it's at the disposal when the ball is on the ground or while a player has the ball in his hands but still inbounds.
Glad to hear this. I had a partner earlier this year, one who is considered senior to me, tell me I was wrong to start my count when the players were arguing over who was going to inbound, I see one of them is holding the ball after a made basket and I begin a 5 count.

Same thing happened after a made basket, the teams "usual inbounder" headed down court, ball bouncing around the endline, the player they usually inbound the ball to just stands there yelling for the "inbounder" to come throw it in, I again start my 5 count. Sounds like I am okay here.

As for the OP, illegal contact, push foul in tonight's example occurred exactly as the ball was falling through the net and bouncing to the floor. Sounds like I should have let this go. (again, unless int/flagrant).

If this same contact occurs, or continues, once the "new" offense has the ball at their disposal (live), then would be the appropriate time to make call.
__________________
Every time you blow your whistle, 50% of the people LOVE you, and 50% of the people HATE you.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 10:00am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 89
First off, disposal is covered in 4-5-7, 4-42-3, and maybe elsewhere. If you cannot find an answer to a rules question in the book, yourself, I encourage you to ask others for a book citation. Just as you said has been your experience on this one, you are going to get a variety of answers (meaning a number of incorrect ones) if you simply ask others what the rule is, rather than asking them which rule(s), specifically, govern in the situation you are asking about. Our collective reliance on others for the rules, rather than on the book, perpetuates our ignorance--see this year's Point of Emphasis #1, page 66 (2010-2011). Once you find the governing rule(s) in the book, then you can ask others for their interpretation of those specific rules in relation to game situations you have questions about, discuss it with them, and formulate your own interpretation--which may change over time as you gain experience.

Regarding your initial question, I find it unlikely that the pushing you are referring to BEGINS after the goal, 5-1-1. Is it possible you are catching the tail-end of the contact, and it actually began prior to the goal? Consider, a goal isn't scored until the ball is through the net (the net is part of the basket, 1-10 and 6-1, and 5-1-1 says the ball must pass THROUGH the basket (or remain in) in order to be a goal).

If the contact truly is beginning after the goal, that is, at minimum, a common player technical foul, 10-3-7, and possibly a flagrant player technical foul, 10-3-8. You have to decide if the push was the result of the offender simply being unaware that a goal had just been scored, in which case you could ignore it (but that is ignoring a foul, unless you deem it incidental contact), or you might loudly verbalize a warning and keep an eye on that player, or you might blow your whistle and simply warn (your primary responsibility IS safety, afterall), or you might decide that the ball was available and at the disposal of the offended player's team, that your five-second count had commenced and was currently at zero, and call a personal foul, as you have been doing. Let's face it, professionals don't ignore fouls. A foul is a foul. We don't make the rules, experts do. We simply enforce them, and in so doing, ensure the integrity of the game.

In your mind, imagine various reasons or causes a player might commit such a foul, decide in each case what your call should be, and then try to apply those principles to what you see on the court--learning all the time, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 11:28am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyBrown View Post
If the contact truly is beginning after the goal, that is, at minimum, a common player technical foul, 10-3-7, and possibly a flagrant player technical foul, 10-3-8.
Huh?

NFHS rule 10-3-7 refers to intentional or flagrant technicals fouls only. You can't have a "common player technical foul" by rule(R4-19-1NOTE). You have to decide which one is appropriate...intentional or flagrant..... if you're going to call a dead-ball contact foul.

NFHS rule 10-3-8 is a fighting technical foul. That's completely irrevelent to this discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 01:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Huh?

NFHS rule 10-3-7 refers to intentional or flagrant technicals fouls only. You can't have a "common player technical foul" by rule(R4-19-1NOTE). You have to decide which one is appropriate...intentional or flagrant..... if you're going to call a dead-ball contact foul.

NFHS rule 10-3-8 is a fighting technical foul. That's completely irrevelent to this discussion.
A classic example of "Our collective reliance on others for the rules, rather than on the book, perpetuates our ignorance..."
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 12, 2011, 11:23pm
Rich's Avatar
Get away from me, Steve.
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 15,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyBrown View Post
If the contact truly is beginning after the goal, that is, at minimum, a common player technical foul, 10-3-7, and possibly a flagrant player technical foul, 10-3-8.
For being fairly preachy, there's a lot wrong in your post. Ignoring dead ball contact is *exactly* what an official is to do, by rule, unless the contact is intentional or flagrant. I'll let you look up the reference.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 13, 2011, 11:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
I have made that call twice although both times when the try was still airborn. I wanted to pass on the contact both times but it was still blatant enough that my whistle went off despite me telling it not to.
__________________
"I'll talk to the organ grinder, but NOT the monkey."

--- Famous Cleveland area official to HC

"I Love Officiating so much, I do it for free. However, I charge for all the crap I take."

--- Me
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 13, 2011, 12:14pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,604
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyBrown View Post
If the contact truly is beginning after the goal, that is, at minimum, a common player technical foul, 10-3-7, and possibly a flagrant player technical foul, 10-3-8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee View Post
Huh?

NFHS rule 10-3-7 refers to intentional or flagrant technicals fouls only. You can't have a "common player technical foul" by rule(R4-19-1NOTE). You have to decide which one is appropriate...intentional or flagrant..... if you're going to call a dead-ball contact foul.
While I agree, Randy's first post has some flaws, I think we can be a little generous here and interpret "common technical foul" to mean "run-of-the-mill technical foul", as opposed to a flagrant.

Jurassic is obviously right that it can't be both common and technical, by Rule 4 standards; but I honestly don't think that's what Randy was trying to say.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 13, 2011, 12:26pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 22,934
Idiom Also Used In Australia ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
"Common technical foul" to mean "run-of-the-mill technical foul", as opposed to a flagrant.
How about "garden variety" technical foul? I'll have my interpreter send this in as a definition suggestion to the NFHS.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 13, 2011, 12:37pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
While I agree, Randy's first post has some flaws, I think we can be a little generous here and interpret "common technical foul" to mean "run-of-the-mill technical foul", as opposed to a flagrant.
Yup, and that's exactly what I did. I did interpret Randy saying it was a common technical foul to mean that it was a "run-of-the-mill technical foul". And that means that Randy's interpretation was completely wrong by rule, as I was pointing out.

It's not a matter of being generous. It's a matter of pointing out a very obvious rules mistake by Randy . It can't be a freaking "run-of-the-mill technical foul" by rule. Rule 4-19-1NOTE to be exact. As per that rule, all dead-ball contact-fouls have to be intentional or flagrant in nature, NOT a "run-of-the mill technical foul".

Hell, Scrappy, you know that.

I really don't care what Randy was trying to say. I do care that what he did say was completely wrong.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Foul while shot in air force39 Basketball 14 Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:26am
Question - One handed push in back WHILE Jump ball with other during shot bradfordwilkins Basketball 9 Tue Mar 08, 2005 09:06pm
Question - One handed push in back WHILE Jump ball with other during shot bradfordwilkins Basketball 1 Mon Mar 07, 2005 08:56pm
Foul Shot Burtis449 Basketball 10 Fri Sep 24, 2004 09:53am
Foul after shot JWC Basketball 3 Wed Dec 11, 2002 09:06am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1