Intentional Foul

[RookieDude]

H.S. Boys Varsity Jamboree the other night.
A smaller 3A school is beating a larger 4A school by 18 pts. halfway through the second half. (two 10 minute halves)
After a throw-in, a frustrated 4A player was running along side a 3A player and decided to foul his opponent hard.
The 4A player took a step toward the 3A player and using his hip...knocked the 3A player two or three steps sideways.
The ball was nowhere near the two players.
The foul didn't look hard enough to be flagrant...but, a common foul didn't seem like enough "punishment". Neither team was in the bonus.
There was definetly "intent" by the 4A player to foul the 3A player.

What's your call?
I will post what was called after I get a few responses.

Thanks,
Dude
P.S. I will say that the Coach didn't say anything to the calling official...but told the non-calling official that it "should have been a double foul".

[Jurassic Referee]

Dude,sounds like a classic intentional foul.It fits the definition-i.e.contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball,severity of the act don't matter,etc.

Did you make the call?

[bard]

From what I read, it sounds like an intentional. I don't recall anything saying that an intentional foul has to be particularly hard. If anything else, if it was very hard, I may have a T.

[firedoc]

My inclination would have been tougher. This is the type of behavior that not only can cause injury, but can lead to further, more physical and aggressive activities down the road. I would have ruled this a flagrant foul and ejected the offending player. Regardless what the coach thinks, if there was no contact instigated by the offended player, there was no double foul.

[mick]

Originally posted by firedoc
My inclination would have been tougher. This is the type of behavior that not only can cause injury, but can lead to further, more physical and aggressive activities down the road. I would have ruled this a flagrant foul and ejected the offending player. Regardless what the coach thinks, if there was no contact instigated by the offended player, there was no double foul.

firedoc,
We don't let our emotions enter into our decision making process.
Call the intentional and have a word with the offender and maybe his coach if it was "that close", or "that unsporting".
mick

[Nevadaref]

I think that in our society we penalize people far too often for what they may do or what their activity might lead to. This annoys me greatly. I certainly would not want to see it on a basketball court. This is clearly and intentional foul. A hockey hipcheck is not violent or savage so it does not meet the definition of a flagrant foul and should not be penalized as such just because it might start a fight.
Get in there quickly, call the intentional, and you won't have a fight.

[mick]

Originally posted by bard
From what I read, it sounds like an intentional. I don't recall anything saying that an intentional foul has to be particularly hard. If anything else, if it was very hard, I may have a T.

bard,
We can get confused between a T and a Flagrant.
Check out the definitions (4-19) with regard to this play.
mick

[Jeff the Ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I think that in our society we penalize people far too often for what they may do or what their activity might lead to. This annoys me greatly. I certainly would not want to see it on a basketball court. This is clearly and intentional foul. A hockey hipcheck is not violent or savage so it does not meet the definition of a flagrant foul and should not be penalized as such just because it might start a fight.
Get in there quickly, call the intentional, and you won't have a fight.

I believe checking is an inherent part of hockey, thus a penalty for an illegal check is somewhat common place. In hoops I've seen hand-checks...never seen a "hip-check"!

[bard]

bard,
We can get confused between a T and a Flagrant.
Check out the definitions (4-19) with regard to this play.
mick

Oops. I knew better. Thanks, mick.

[mick]

Originally posted by bard

bard,
We can get confused between a T and a Flagrant.
Check out the definitions (4-19) with regard to this play.
mick

Oops. I knew better. Thanks, mick.

I knew you did.
Now quit screwin' up!!!!

[DownTownTonyBrown]

And the call made during the game was......????

RookieDude...???? The call was .... what?

[Lotto]

Originally posted by RookieDude
The 4A player took a step toward the 3A player and using his hip...knocked the 3A player two or three steps sideways.
The ball was nowhere near the two players.
The foul didn't look hard enough to be flagrant...but, a common foul didn't seem like enough "punishment".

The ball is live, so this is a personal foul of some sorty. It is intentional? From the NCAA rules:


Appendix III. Officiating guidelines

Section 6. Intentional Personal Fouling
Guidelines for calling the intentional personal foul are:

d. Grabbing, holding or pushing a player away from the ball is an intentional personal foul.


Based on this, I'd say that this is an intentional foul. Is it flagrant?


Rule 4.

Section 26. Foul

Art. 4. Flagrant personal foul, live ball (women: flagrant foul). A flagrant personal foul shall be a personal foul that involves severe or excessive contact with an opponent or involves contact that is extreme in nature while the ball is live.


From your description, it doesn't sound as though the contact was severe or excessive or extreme. Not flagrant.

My call: Intentional personal foul.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Dude,sounds like a classic intentional foul.It fits the definition-i.e.contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball,severity of the act don't matter,etc.

Did you make the call?

Yes...you gussed it JR and the others who stated that the contact should be ruled intentional...at least that is exactly how I called it.
Thanks mick for the clarification on a "T" and a Flagrant foul...I was thinking those two would be brought up concerning this thread.
IMHO this intentional foul stuff has to be taken care of or we may be looking at a fight later in the game.
Some officials are reluctant to call this foul...but used right, it can be a very good officiating tool.
Having said that, I probably only had 1 or 2 intentional fouls all last season.

Dude

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Having said that, I probably only had 1 or 2 intentional fouls all last season.

Dude

You mean you almost never had a team foul in the last minute to stop the clock all season?

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

You mean you almost never had a team foul in the last minute to stop the clock all season?

That is correct Mark...I had 1 or 2 situations in which I called the intentional foul.
We know there is an "art" in fouling an opponent so as not to appear "intentional"....i.e. to stop the clock, etc. These are situations, which I am sure you know well, that we use our better judgment on if we should call the intentional.
Sometimes we can see a player "going for the ball" when he slaps the opponents arm with 2 seconds left and trailing by 2pts...sometimes it looks like the player had no intention of "going for the ball" at all but, just to stop the clock.
Then we make the call that we have to.
I'm in a different situation than many of my fellow officials here I'm sure...I work shift work and have other activities that keep me pretty busy i.e. my boys racing motorcycles, sports, etc. therefore, I do not do as many games as the majority of you seem to do.
I have a Boys Varsity schedule that I do during the playing year, Dec. - Feb., and then some post season stuff...and that's about it, so I do not have the oportunity to have as many game situations come up as I would if I did more Jr. High, AAU and City League games.
Trust me, I did my share in the past, and it was great for that time in my career.
There will be a time, in the future, where I will probably be able to do more games again....whew,,,that kind of got off the subject now, didn't it?

Dude