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MWI Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:21pm

Race Controversy in Nebraska
 
There is some debate beginning on how officials are selected to work the girls and boys state tournament. How is this done in other states. Here are some articles.

NSAA to review selection process of state basketball officials

Black refs unhappy to be left out - Omaha.com

Rich Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWI (Post 738370)
There is some debate beginning on how officials are selected to work the girls and boys state tournament. How is this done in other states. Here are some articles.

NSAA to review selection process of state basketball officials

Black refs unhappy to be left out - Omaha.com

10 whole years and not selected to work the state tournament. Wow. What a travesty.

JRutledge Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:52pm

I am surprised there are Black people in Nebraska to begin with (that is a little joke I tell someone I know from Omaha). :eek:

All I will say is our state does the assigning from the IHSA Office by the administrator of that sport (one for Boy's and one for Girl's Basketball). They have a lot of things they consider from a Power Rating to where you live. And they do make an effort for diversity as our teams are very diverse. It would look silly if you had all white officials and none of the coaches or players looked like the officials. I am going to assume that might not be as much of an issue in all of Nebraska. ;)

Peace

SAJ Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:14am

One of the articles mentions 150 officials qualifying for the state tournament. This is incorrect. There were 274 officials who qualified. 72 were selected.

I'm fighting along with these guys to get into the state tournament. I have really no comment on the issues brought up, but my only complaint is it seems like it's the same guys going every year. Like the article mentions, there are several quality officials that don't end up going.

bainsey Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738406)
my only complaint is it seems like it's the same guys going every year.

Isn't that true in many states?

Camron Rust Thu Mar 10, 2011 01:38am

While there may be a real issue there, it doesn't matter who you send....many are going to feel they should have gone instead those get selected. The basic fact is that there are very limited slots and a lot of people that want them.

Also, I find it hilarious that a 10 year official things he's getting unfair treatment because he hadn't been selected yet. I'm not sure we've sent an official from our association with under 10 years experience at all in modern history. 10-15 years for the first tourney is fairly typical.

JRutledge Thu Mar 10, 2011 02:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 738439)
While there may be a real issue there, it doesn't matter who you send....many are going to feel they should have gone instead those get selected. The basic fact is that there are very limited slots and a lot of people that want them.

I agree. There are always going to be officials that feel that they should have been picked over someone else. And even when you move through the playoffs (at least in our system) there are those that feel they should have moved before someone else. This will never end no matter the race, gender, area, experience level and background.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 738439)
Also, I find it hilarious that a 10 year official things he's getting unfair treatment because he hadn't been selected yet. I'm not sure we've sent an official from our association with under 10 years experience at all in modern history. 10-15 years for the first tourney is fairly typical.

Ten years around here might be a little long here, but then again everyone makes the playoffs here, so they need more officials. But then again getting playoff games changes from one gender or one level to another.

Peace

JugglingReferee Thu Mar 10, 2011 05:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738406)
One of the articles mentions 150 officials qualifying for the state tournament. This is incorrect. There were 274 officials who qualified. 72 were selected.

If that is true, then either 5 or 6 black officials should be selected to work the tournament, IF all officials were of the same quality etc, and were available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jug's Excel
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="192"><col span="3" width="64"><tbody><tr height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" align="right" height="17" width="64">274</td> <td style="width: 48pt;" align="right" width="64">252</td> <td style="width: 48pt;" align="right" width="64">22</td> </tr></tbody></table><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="192"><tbody><tr height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" align="right" height="17" width="64">72</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" align="right" width="64">66.22</td> <td class="xl24" style="width: 48pt;" align="right" width="64">5.78</td> </tr></tbody></table>

That means 2.5 or 3 officials for each gender. Well, it turns out that 2 went to the boy's tournament. Chanell Hickey said, "The numbers don't lie". There is clearly no evidence that this group is being shunned from the boy's tournament. All things being equal, they should send 1 more black official. But guess what? That would only be true if all non-selected officials graded out evenly. We know that's not true. If there was a significant history of "more black officials should be going" then I'd address it. But based on this year alone, this is not news worthy.

The first article does claim that there is a small history of "blacks not getting in". However, the official that made this claim, Chanell Hickey, did not provide any demographics. It is also clear that the reporter didn't ask the NSAA for this information. Maybe 5 years ago there were only 5 black officials. Maybe there were 50. We don't know, so we can't take past history into account. Until we know facts, the article is nothing except misleading and should be ignored as news.


Why there wasn't 2 or 3 officials sent to the girl's tournament I am not sure. They did say elements like geography come into play - which means even if one official is only slightly less qualified, but lives in town, and another officials lives at some distance, then they'll pic the local official. It would make sense to me, statistically, to have at least 1 black official at the girl's tournament. Statistically, there should be at least 1 qualified black official that doesn't live far far away. But again, without previous years' facts to establish a pattern, the story is nothing.

If the girl's tournament is located in the same city as the boy's tournament, perhaps the same two black officials could have worked both tournaments?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Article 2
Plus, if an all-white officiating crew calls a game between a predominantly white team and a predominantly black team, they say, questions about fairness can arise in the bleachers and on the bench.

They're basically calling non-black officials racist without evidence.


Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738406)
I'm fighting along with these guys to get into the state tournament. I have really no comment on the issues brought up, but my only complaint is it seems like it's the same guys going every year. Like the article mentions, there are several quality officials that don't end up going.

The bell curve will suggest that of the 72 selected, some will go multiple years in a row. Some will go off and on based on that year's ratings, or a few years in a row. The best will filter to the group that will eventually be perennials. So the key is to break that from group that often sits on the bubble.

SAJ Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:00am

The girls and boys tournament's are both held in Lincoln.

Hickey does have a valid concern about experience. At the girls tournament this year, there was one 1st year certified official and two 2nd year certified officials working the games. In the boys tournament there are 2 second year certified officials working the games.

Jurassic Referee Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738514)
Hickey does have a valid concern about experience. At the girls tournament this year, there was one 1st year certified official and two 2nd year certified officials working the games. In the boys tournament there are 2 second year certified officials working the games.

That's years of being certified though, isn't it, instead of actual officiating experience? According to the article, that means these officials had to have at least five years of experience before they could get certified. Iow, the first and second year certified officials mentioned above have at least 6/7 years of experience and possibly more. That doesn't seem outrageous to me at all for someone doing first-round girls playoffs.

SAJ Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738526)
That's years of being certified though, isn't it, instead of actual officiating experience? According to the article, that means these officials had to have at least five years of experience before they could get certified. Iow, the first and second year certified officials mentioned above have at least 6/7 years of experience and possibly more. That doesn't seem outrageous to me at all for someone doing first-round girls playoffs.

Yeah, they've had at least 2 years of Registered status and at least 2 years of Approved status before becoming Certified.

As for first round...that's not first round...that's finals. If you consider all post season play as part of the "State Tournament", then the NSAA uses all classification levels of officials in the subdistrict/district final rounds. All district final winners meet in Lincoln for the three day state tournament. Only certified officials can work those games. All officials are guaranteed two games the first day, one game the second day, and one game the third day (Nebraska has 3rd place games).

Jurassic Referee Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738528)
Yeah, they've had at least 2 years of Registered status and at least 2 years of Approved status before becoming Certified.

As for first round...that's not first round...that's finals.

I still don't really find that outrageous by any means. I've seen quite a few officials with 7/8 years experience who were better than someone with 27 years experience. Hell, I've seen guys with less experience than that get picked up by a D1 conference. I think you have to assess the ability of the official to do the level you to assign them too. If they qualify, use 'em. You'll never know how ready they are though unless you give them a chance. Then.....well, it's up to them.

JMO

parker27 Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:35am

A little FYI in case anyone cared. Chanelle Hickey is a convicted felon who has spent time in the NE State Penitentiary (not a lot of time...around a year I think) I am just wondering how other states handle this situation. Should a state activities association be concerned with who they hire?? What are other states' policy on this?

Rich Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by parker27 (Post 738533)
A little FYI in case anyone cared. Chanelle Hickey is a convicted felon who has spent time in the NE State Penitentiary (not a lot of time...around a year I think) I am just wondering how other states handle this situation. Should a state activities association be concerned with who they hire?? What are other states' policy on this?

Depends what he was in for, as far as I'm concerned. I'd lean in the direction "they should be concerned," yes.

But expecting to get to the state tournament (and we're not talking about early round playoffs here) and crying racism after 10 years of service is a little ridiculous, IMO. I'm only 9 years in my current state and this is a battle I fight (because as far as the state is concerned, my first 15 years don't really exist) in all my sports.

bob jenkins Thu Mar 10, 2011 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by parker27 (Post 738533)
A little FYI in case anyone cared. Chanelle Hickey is a convicted felon who has spent time in the NE State Penitentiary (not a lot of time...around a year I think) I am just wondering how other states handle this situation. Should a state activities association be concerned with who they hire?? What are other states' policy on this?

States should have some sort of background check. Assuming NE does, and Mr. Hickey answered honestly, and NE "approved" the information, I have no problem with him officiating.

Raymond Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 738373)
10 whole years and not selected to work the state tournament. Wow. What a travesty.

That person never said in either article linked that he should have been selected to work the state tournament.

Jeremy Hohn Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:06am

In Texas...
 
We have to rank internally with our chapter a "top 25" list. Then the UIL will look at the list, and based off of either personal knowledge of ability, or feedback from coaches and evaulators they select 3 officials from each chapter to officiate first round games. From those games, the crews themselves are evaluated at the state tournament to see if they will officiate a final.
Many chapters are "one-and-done" at the state tournament due to what the evaluators feel is being called correctly.

As far as racial makeup, we are required to submit, an african-american, one anglo, and one hispanic or female. (Our chapter size didn't have a female official in our top 25, so we had a hispanic representative)

Rich Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 738558)
That person never said in either article linked that he should have been selected to work the state tournament.

The inference is pretty strong, though. Both articles noted he's never worked one.

Raymond Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 738561)
The inference is pretty strong, though. Both articles noted he's never worked one.

That's on the reporter. None of the quotes from that person cause that inference on your part. "10 year official" and "no state tournament assignments" are facts the reporter chose to use in describing that person. Maybe that person was the only one who chose to give the reporter a quote. Or maybe he's speaking up b/c his best friend is a 15 year official who keeps getting overlooked for the state tournament. For all we know the 2 officials who did get selected were at the meeting also and gave quotes that the reporter chose not to use.

tref Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAJ (Post 738528)
All officials are guaranteed two games the first day, one game the second day, and one game the third day (Nebraska has 3rd place games).

Thats a lot of meaningful, high-profile games to work in a 3 day span! There could be more officials selected if they didn't have guys working 4 games in 3 days.

In Colorado, State Week in the 4 & 5A class is G/B Final 4 & C'Ship alternating Wednesday-Saturday. If selected to work those levels, you get 1 of those 12 games.

3A-1A is G/B Great 8 - C'Ship over 3 days Thursday-Saturday with a losers bracket as well. If selected to work those levels, you get 2 games with the same crew.

Basically, everyone gets to work the 1st week of post-season.
The 2nd week it becomes very competitive.
State Week, around 140 officials receive an invite to work. (5 year max out rule)
Spread the love NE!

Jeremy Hohn Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:40am

Texas has a 3 year string, and then you are omitted for 3 I think.

We only work one game daily, but the State tournaments in Texas are separate weekends in the boys and girls divisions.

Camron Rust Thu Mar 10, 2011 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 738582)
Thats a lot of meaningful, high-profile games to work in a 3 day span! There could be more officials selected if they didn't have guys working 4 games in 3 days.

I think many states do it that way. It is that way in Oregon. They're not going to pay travel and lodging for an official to work just one game and go home. They bring them in for a 4 day tourney and each official works 3-4 games.

Rich Thu Mar 10, 2011 01:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 738685)
I think many states do it that way. It is that way in Oregon. They're not going to pay travel and lodging for an official to work just one game and go home. They bring them in for a 4 day tourney and each official works 3-4 games.

I think WI gets it right in that regard. Everyone works one game. Now, if it wasn't the same faces year after year after year after year......

Raymond Thu Mar 10, 2011 02:07pm

In VA there are 40 quarterfinal games played throughout the state (5 classes for both Boys & Girls). Those game are worked by neutral crews in which all 3 officials come from the same association. Commissioners/assignors submit a list of names from their association to work State games to the VHSL and the VHSL puts together each of the crews for each quarterfinal game. (120 officials)

The state semi's (20 games/60 officials) and finals (10 games/30 officials) are all played at the Seigel Center in Richmond. The VHSL handpicks each crew member from the lists of officials provided by the commissioners. Some, but not a large number, officials who worked the quarterfinals also work at the Seigel Center. 90 officials work at the Seigel Center, no one works twice there.

2 years ago the VHSL started an Identification Camp for officials who have never worked a state game so that the VHSL can see new faces from all the associations. Our old commissioner refused to submit names for the first 2 camps. He had openly stated for years that he didn't want the VHSL telling him who to send to the state tourney.

SperlingPE Fri Mar 11, 2011 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738526)
That's years of being certified though, isn't it, instead of actual officiating experience? According to the article, that means these officials had to have at least five years of experience before they could get certified. Iow, the first and second year certified officials mentioned above have at least 6/7 years of experience and possibly more. That doesn't seem outrageous to me at all for someone doing first-round girls playoffs.

No you only need one year as registered, two years required at the approved level, before you can get to the certified level provided that you meet all test requirements and varsity contest requirements. A one year certified offical could have as little as 4 years of experience

SAJ Fri Mar 11, 2011 08:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SperlingPE (Post 739159)
No you only need one year as registered, two years required at the approved level, before you can get to the certified level provided that you meet all test requirements and varsity contest requirements. A one year certified offical could have as little as 4 years of experience

not in Nebraska....need 2 years as Registered and then 2 years as Approved, before Certified.


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