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-   -   AP or OOB (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/64345-ap-oob.html)

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy (Post 737994)
1)I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when both players have (almost) control of the ball: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called. That's all.

2)Would you call a held ball as soon as a player puts both hands on the ball in control of an opponent? I guess you won't; we won't either, even if the first player steps OOB before the "initial" conditions for a held ball are present.

1) It's enforced exactly as I said above. You don't have dual control but you treat it like there was dual control. That illogical imo.

2) No, but if that player was OOB when he first puts both hands on the ball, we do call a violation on him. We also call a violation on that player if he steps OOB anytime after he first puts both hands on the ball but before dual control is attained. Under FIBA rules, you don't.

It is what it is....a FIBA rule....but it just isn't logical to me.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 737997)
Frankly, I think that's how we call it in NFHS, too. If he steps OOB before both players have secured the ball, OOB. If he does it after, even if my whistle hasn't blown yet, held ball.

Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.

It's a simple call. See post #2 by BktBallRef.

just another ref Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 737997)
Frankly, I think that's how we call it in NFHS, too. If he steps OOB before both players have secured the ball, OOB. If he does it after, even if my whistle hasn't blown yet, held ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738054)
Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.

How is he wrong? He says the OOB is after both players have secured the ball.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy (Post 737994)
[INDENT]I'm not a fan of this ruling, but it's not enforced as you believe. When judging a possible held ball there's an interval of time when <font color = red>both players have (almost) control of the ball</font>: the official must wait and see if all conditions for a held ball are present (no one can get ball control without undue roughness, for instance). <font color = red>If in that interval of time one of the players involved steps OOB, FIBA requires that a held ball is called</font>. That's all.

There's the post I've been referring to, JAR. No dual possession.Almost control isn't control. But while waiting to see if dual possession is obtained, if one player steps OOB you still call the held ball under FIBA rules. We don't. We call a violation because there wasn't dual control when the player stepped OOB while touching the ball.

That was my point all along.

eg-italy Wed Mar 09, 2011 01:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738052)
1) It's enforced exactly as I said above. You don't have dual control but you treat it like there was dual control. That illogical imo.

How many FIBA games did you see? :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738052)
2) No, but if that player was OOB when he first puts both hands on the ball, we do call a violation on him. We also call a violation on that player if he steps OOB anytime after he first puts both hands on the ball but before dual control is attained. Under FIBA rules, you don't.

It is what it is....a FIBA rule....but it just isn't logical to me.

Your concept of dual possession is, approximately, "when no player can get control without undue roughness", at least in that case play. Well, FIBA just adds something to the concept of dual control.

Is it logical to you that the CE "failure to award merited free throws" can lead to a five or six point play? You fail to award bonus free throws to team A, which scores a three point field goal (maybe with a foul): three points, error correction (other two points) and possible bonus free throw. This makes 5 or 6 instead of 2. To me it isn't logical. :) Under FIBA rules this can only lead to a three or four point play, because in this case the error is disregarded.

Every rule set has its not so logical parts.

Ciao

Adam Wed Mar 09, 2011 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738054)
Nope, frankly that's not how it's supposed to be called under NFHS rules. I think you're calling it completely wrong by rule. You're granting a held ball before dual possesssion is attained. You're calling a held ball when a violation has occurred.

It's a simple call. See post #2 by BktBallRef.

So if, in the time between when my brain recognizes a held ball has occured and my whistle blows, B1 steps OOB, you're saying I should call the violation rather than the held ball for which my whistle was about to blow when B1 stepped on the line?

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 738092)
So if, in the time between when my brain recognizes <font color = red>a held ball has occured</font> and my whistle blows, B1 steps OOB, you're saying I should call the violation rather than the held ball for which my whistle as about to blow when B1 stepped on the line?

No, I'm saying that if you're saying that we call held balls the same way that FIBA is, you're completely wrong by rule. The situation that you're discussing above is not the same situation that eg-italy was talking about. He's talking about calling a held ball by FIBA rule when one opponent steps OOB while touching the ball and there never was dual possession at the time the player stepped OOB. Iow, a held ball never occurred before the player stepped OOB.

Our rules and the FIBA rules...as per the discussion in this thread.. are completely different.

That's what I'm saying.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy (Post 738087)
How many FIBA games did you see? :)

What has that got to do with anything if I understand the difference between the two rulesets? :confused:

Adam Wed Mar 09, 2011 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738111)
No, I'm saying that if you're saying that we call held balls the same way that FIBA is, you're completely wrong by rule. The situation that you're discussing above is not the same situation that eg-italy was talking about. He's talking about calling a held ball by FIBA rule when one opponent steps OOB while touching the ball and there never was dual possession at the time the player stepped OOB. Iow, a held ball never occurred before the player stepped OOB.

Our rules and the FIBA rules...as per the discussion in this thread.. are completely different.

That's what I'm saying.

Then I misread him; I thought he was calling it my way. Not the first time I've misread someone.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 738118)
Then I misread him; I thought he was calling it my way. Not the first time I've misread someone.

I thought maybe you did. I know you knew the correct NFHS and NCAA rule.

BillyMac Wed Mar 09, 2011 03:07pm

Force Out ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 738007)
Not on his own accord.

Back when I was young enough to play playground basketball we had a "force out rule". I'm not sure that I remember it being called in a "real" game. Was this ever a real NFHS rule, or is it one of those playground myths?

eg-italy Wed Mar 09, 2011 03:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 738116)
What has that got to do with anything if I understand the difference between the two rulesets? :confused:

You think you know perfectly how that rule is enforced. Actually you don't.

Ciao

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eg-italy (Post 738160)
You think you know perfectly how that rule is enforced. Actually you don't.

I went by YOUR description of how FIBA enforces their rule. Are you telling me that you lied to me and I shouldn't believe you?

OK. Got it.

Jurassic Referee Wed Mar 09, 2011 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 738150)
Back when I was young enough to play playground basketball we had a "force out rule". I'm not sure that I remember it being called in a "real" game. Was this ever a real NFHS rule, or is it one of those playground myths?

Never an NFHS or NCAA rule. It was an old NBA rule though.


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