Does anyone know for sure what is the interpretation for this situation:
Team A leads by 3 with only two seconds left. Team A has only 2 players remaining in the game at this point. The rest are DQ'd. One of these players commits his 5th foul leaving only one player in the game for team A. It is a shooting foul. Now since team A clearly has a chance to win, the game is not forfeited and team B will shoot the free throws. The problem is that team A cannot fulfill the requirement of 8-1-3a during the free throw since it only has one player left. Is this a violation? Is it a T? Is it nothing?

This is a continueing A FT violation until the B free throw shooter makes his (assumed)2 foul shots.In theory,the last team A player can then make a throw in and team B will either miss the last shot or not have enough time to get it off,giving A the win.That's why you don't forfeit and play on in this case.

What if
 

What if A5 steps inside the FT extended early. Do we now go to the arrow?

JR,
That is what I was thinking too, but I don't know for sure.
How do you know it is a violation?
And why is it not a T for delay of game?

I'm using this ruling to create a rather amusing senario!

Damn,Nevada,you're making me hit the books!
Of course,that not really a bad thing!:D

The violation is spelled out in Rule 9-1-2--"an opponent of the free thrower shall occupy each lane space adjacent to the end line during the try".The penalty for this violation is set out in R9-1-2Penaltyb--i.e.you just award a substitute free throw if the original FT is no good.

You can't give anybody a T for "delay of game" because no one is doing anything to delay the game!It's that simple.

Re: What if
 

Willie,in this case a B player is shooting a FT with the last A player lined up low.Do you mean that someone on the B team now commits a FT violation,resulting in a double violation?If you did,I think that you do have a double violation and an AP.

The rules book says it is a T if the free thrower is not in the circle when the officials are ready unless RP in effect.
Likewise, I always thought it was a T for delay of game if the non-shooting team did not properly occupy the two lane spaces nearest the endline during a free throw unless the resuming-play procedure was in effect. Perhaps this is not true.

What I am getting at is that if we are going to enforce the violation against a team with only one player left, then logically we should also be enforcing the techincal foul. (If it is one.) Perhaps we should be enforcing neither. I just don't see the justification for enforcing one and not the other.
PS JR, it is not what they are doing that gets the T, but rather what they are NOT doing!

From the Rules Book: "Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule ..."

If A only has one player, they *can't* occupy both spaces. Don't penalize them for that.

Didn't we already have this discussion? Are you just trolling?

I agree that this was not the intent of this rule and should not apply here. BUT if you do want to go by the book and call a violation here I think there is about a 99% chance that since there is no team A player there, a team B player will step right into that first lane space and here we have a simultaneous violation. Do we enforce that, or not?

There is a 100% chance that you, being a good ref, will
tell the team B player to vacate that space before bouncing
the ball to his teammate.

Extraordinary circumstances
 

My personal opinion here is that in a very rare case such as this, a lot of rules kind of go out the window. I think A1 takes one inside position and the B players can take whatever is left, including the other inside position. If it's about gaining an advantage, I don't see much advantage in taking one position over the other if you are going to be the only one on that side anyway. On a related subject, does anyone else get really tired of having to tell the players where to get on every free throw. "C'mon, line up.
blue, white, blue, no, you two switch. That's it." etc.
Also, so many, even in varsity, just don't get the 1&1 thing. Player makes the first, and they all start down the court. "Excuse me, everybody come back. One more." Something most coaches don't spend a lot of time on?

I think that if you ever get this sitch in a game,and you let a FT get taken with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,you had better be hoping that a supervisor isn't watching the game.As Dan said,make 'em line up right before you throw the ball to the free thrower(B1).That's your job!

If you do let the free thrower take a shot with A1 and B2 in the bottom slots,then it is a double violation.Cancel the shot.If it's the first of 2 shots,go to the 2nd shot-and forgoodnessake don't let a B player into a bottom slot again.If it's the 2nd of two,or the first of a 1and1,go with the AP.

Hmmmmmmm....why is it a Double Violation if Team A only has one player left and that player is in the correct position, bottom slot. Is it Team A's fault that the official let a player from Team B fill that vacant bottom slot? Does the one player left on Team A have to do the job of the officials and yell at the player for being in a bottom slot of which Team A has no players to fill?

I agree with the "Common Sense" guys...in this sitch, if you only have one player left, let him/her line up in the bottom slot and keep the other slot vacant...no violations, no delay of game, play ball!

In the event you do have a Team B player take the bottom slot, in this unlikely scenario,...violation Team B! If the rules are going to allow one player to play, we shouldn't make that player also have to officiate! ;)

Dude

Hmmmmmmm....why is it a Double Violation if Team A only has one player left and that player is in the correct position, bottom slot. Is it Team A's fault that the official let a player from Team B fill that vacant bottom slot? Does the one player left on Team A have to do the job of the officials and yell at the player for being in a bottom slot of which Team A has no players to fill?

I agree with the "Common Sense" guys...in this sitch, if you only have one player left, let him/her line up in the bottom slot and keep the other slot vacant...no violations, no delay of game, play ball!

In the event you do have a Team B player take the bottom slot, in this unlikely scenario,...violation Team B! If the rules are going to allow one player to play, we shouldn't make that player also have to officiate! ;)

Dude [/B][/QUOTE]Uh,Dude,being a "Common Sense" guy doesn't mean that you get to make up your own rules.
Plain and simple,it is a violation for an opponent of the FT shooter not to fill each lane space adjacent to the end line.That's rule 9-1-2!It is not the officials' fault that a team is down to one player,and we can't change the rules just because we're feeling sorry for them. Just because a team is down to one player and cannot fulfill this obligation doesn't mean that the rule suddenly changes.If you think different,please quote something-anything-from a rule or casebook that will back up your supposition.I'll gaurantee that if you don't call this violation,and the FT shooter misses a foul shot and goes on to lose,you are gonna be one sorry dude.You will have just(possibly)cost a team a game by ignoring a straight forward rule.Good luck at ever working at that school or league again!

Uh,Dude,being a "Common Sense" guy doesn't mean that you get to make up your own rules.
Plain and simple,it is a violation for an opponent of the FT shooter not to fill each lane space adjacent to the end line.That's rule 9-1-2!It is not the officials' fault that a team is down to one player,and we can't change the rules just because we're feeling sorry for them. Just because a team is down to one player and cannot fulfill this obligation doesn't mean that the rule suddenly changes.If you think different,please quote something-anything-from a rule or casebook that will back up your supposition.I'll gaurantee that if you don't call this violation,and the FT shooter misses a foul shot and goes on to lose,you are gonna be one sorry dude.You will have just(possibly)cost a team a game by ignoring a straight forward rule.Good luck at ever working at that school or league again! [/B][/QUOTE]

...Ok...let's take a deep breath...I was merely applying what I thought would be the intent of the rules regarding filling in the bottom spaces. If there is no one to fill in the bottom space, it could be reasoned that the Team should not be punished for not filling it. (Seems like "common sense")
I could be wrong...but I gotta tell ya...I would rather have the Team that MISSED the free throw, and going against one player, lose...than to stand there and let an eighth grade girl shoot FT's untill she makes two. Heck, with some of the players I've seen, we could be there all night.:)
C'mon...wouldn't that be some sort of a travesty to "make" the girl shoot, untill she makes them, because of your interpretation (btw, not unanimous here) of a rule that is not spelled out when concerning one player left in the game.
In this situation...why not just "award" two points?...because in your situation she has to shoot untill she makes two.
Interesting discussion.

Dude

Dude,remember back to when you were a coach?You're playing for a championship and this situation comes up,with your team shooting the FT's.The officials don't call a violation on the other team,your FT shooter misses,the remaining player on the other team gets the rebound,throws the ball to the other end of the court,and you LOSE.Now,if you(the coach)happen to know what the specific rule is,are you gonna put in some kind of protest,or are you gonna let it slide?

Not many coaches will let it slide.I also can't blame a coach in this situation for not letting it slide.That's because he just got screwed by the officials.

Now,from the other perspective,if there is a protest,exactly how are you gonna answer it if you were one of the officials? There is no rules basis to justify what you did.

You always have to be fair to both teams when you officiate!

...Fair enough...

Dude

We had this debate before, somewhere. The B player taking the first position is a violation, but is there something special about this violation? Why tell them about it? If
a player is standing on the line do you warn them to get off the line before you give the shooter the ball? When a player dribbles the ball off his foot and runs and picks it up, do you warn him not to dribble again? What's the difference?

We had this debate before, somewhere. The B player taking the first position is a violation, but is there something special about this violation? Why tell them about it? If
a player is standing on the line do you warn them to get off the line before you give the shooter the ball? When a player dribbles the ball off his foot and runs and picks it up, do you warn him not to dribble again? What's the difference? [/B][/QUOTE]In case Dan is busy off chopping the nuts off another poor,defenseless dog,I'll try to answer the question for him.
The difference is that in the first few cases,time is out and you can forestall some minor,technical violations-but,in the last case,play is going on and you don't really know that there is a violation pending until it's actually committed.
What Dan advises on this play is pretty well standard procedure followed by good,experienced officials.

Before this discussion goes any further, let's ask this:

What difference does the discussion make? Has anyone EVER had to deal with this? Has anything anywhere near this situation happened? What are the odds of my ever having to understand this aberration?

Y'know, I wasn't going to reply to this, but, since Rainmaker asked, I actually have heard of this happening. Years ago, I read a newspaper article about a corporate league game in which all but one of the players from one team fouled out, with a couple of minutes to go in the game, and the lead. The article detailed how the lone player was able to hold off the other team, and lead...himself...to victory.

No lie.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep the article. I could kick myself for not cutting it out.

In case Dan is busy off chopping the nuts off another poor,defenseless dog,I'll try to answer the question for him.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Nah. I was in my room, pouting.

Quote:

The difference is that in the first few cases,time is out and you can forestall some minor,technical violations-but,in the last case,play is going on and you don't really know that there is a violation pending until it's actually committed. What Dan advises on this play is pretty well standard procedure followed by good,experienced officials.

And even by we lousy inexperienced ones.

BTW, anybody seen my Druid winter solstice ceremony hat?
I'm gonna need it in a couple of weeks...geeze, I hope I
didn't leave it down at the basketball courts...I sure hope
I can order a new one from http://www.purchase_druid_supplies.com in time.

Nah. I was in my room, pouting.


And even by we lousy inexperienced ones.

BTW, anybody seen my Druid winter solstice ceremony hat?
I'm gonna need it in a couple of weeks...geeze, I hope I
didn't leave it down at the basketball courts...I sure hope
I can order a new one from http://www.purchase_druid_supplies.com in time. [/B][/QUOTE]Does someone need a hug to-day?

Got a letter from the state association to wear that hat?

LOL!! :D

I've had a team get down to one player several times at the elementary level, but always called the game at that point because that team was behind and had no chance to win.
A local jr. high girls team a couple of years ago in a consolation game of a tournament got down to their last player and had a 6 or 8 point lead. They continued to play.
Coach called time out and told his remaining player to try to get in their way as much as possible, then when they scored grab the ball, step slowly out of bounds, hold it for a 4 count, and then heave it toward the other end of the court. Unfortunately the other team tied it up just before the buzzer and the game was called. In a good display of sportsmanship the winning team gave its consolation trophy to the one girl who was left from the losing team.

One other thing: If it did come down to a team with only one player left, and still with a chance to win, good chance there wouldn't be any free throws to worry about, because the last thing that team would need is for that one player to foul out.

Of course, there are no "protests" in basketball. Once the game is over and the final score is approved, that's it. The game stands.

I am well aware that the FED rulebook has language concerning protests.Individual leagues,States,etc. may have their own language,too,and will hear protests.If an official screws up a game badly,the game result may end up standing,but there's also a good chance that the official that screwed up won't be standing for a while,especially in that particular league.

BTW, anybody seen my Druid winter solstice ceremony hat?
I'm gonna need it in a couple of weeks...geeze, I hope I
didn't leave it down at the basketball courts.[/B][/QUOTE]Hmmmmmm!Looks illegal to me!
http://www.gifs.net/animate/an254.gif

Hmmmmmm!Looks illegal to me!
http://www.gifs.net/animate/an254.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Look coach, as far as I'm concerned the robe & the hat are fine. The stick I can live with too, if he promises to keep it out of sight under the robe. But the bird has got to go! I aint gettin' any damn owl droppings all over my freshly shined shoes.

Here are my questions from a coach's perspective:

1. What the heck was the trailing team doing shooting a two-pointer (that could result in a two-shot foul) with three seconds left down by three points?

2. If I'm the trailing team's coach, this idea of a continuing FT violation until we make both sounds crazy. We'd be missing the second FT on purpose to get the rebound and put it in. Hmmm. Well, maybe we'd make both, and get the heck out of the way when the one player attempted to inbound. Let his inbound attempt go out of bounds untouched, and get the ball back under our own basket down by one point with :03 left and only one defender. As the lone player having to make that inbound pass, I know if he could he'd try to throw it off one of the opponents and come inbounds and control the deflection. But if all the opponents moved away from the ball...well, where would the throw-in spot be if the lone player rolled the ball in, the opponents stayed away from it, and the lone player ran down the court beside it and picked it up at the opposite foul line?

But the bird has got to go! I aint gettin' any damn owl droppings all over my freshly shined shoes. [/B][/QUOTE]Can you quote a rule that will cover your actions,Sir? As far as I am aware of, there is no rule in either the NFHS,NCAA,NBA or FIBA rulesets that specifically bars a player from participating with an owl on his shoulder.They don't even need a letter from the State allowing it.

I challenge you to cite a rule barring owls!!

This might be the one time where I would agree with using 2-3! :)

Can you quote a rule that will cover your actions,Sir? As far as I am aware of, there is no rule in either the NFHS,NCAA,NBA or FIBA rulesets that specifically bars a player from participating with an owl on his shoulder.They don't even need a letter from the State allowing it.

I challenge you to cite a rule barring owls!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Notice I did not object to the owl, I objected to the owl droppings. NCAA 10-3-6 Debris on Court.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/monkbum.gif

Can you quote a rule that will cover your actions,Sir? As far as I am aware of, there is no rule in either the NFHS,NCAA,NBA or FIBA rulesets that specifically bars a player from participating with an owl on his shoulder.They don't even need a letter from the State allowing it.

I challenge you to cite a rule barring owls!! [/B][/QUOTE]

LOL!!
No, no, STOP it!!
You're killing me here!!
No, more, please, no more!!