I know what rule 9-4 says on kicking the ball, intentionally or unintentionally, but why is it that officials call kicking on the defense when it is unintentionall. Thanks

I'm not sure what the purpose of the question is. If they call it that way, then they've called it incorrectly. It's that simple.

Why would donj ask???
 

1) This rule seems to be one that is consistently called incorrectly in my experience - this may be what inspired the question; however. . .

2) This rule is also invoked without knowledge of what a player's true intent was. If you move your foot and hit the ball and cause it to move in another direction, especially on defense, it is going to be called a kick without the official asking what your intent was. If you are asking because this occurred - tough brreak, that's the way it should be called.

But I also see it called on dribbles off the foot, loose balls that bounce off players feet with a clear lack of intent on the part of the player, etc. I hate those calls. They are not kicks, they are ball coming into contact with a foot.

Proper application
 

Yes, I see it called incorrectly quite often myself. I don't have my rule book with me for reference but intent is part of the rule; below the knee is another part.

The defense must be moving their feet to stop a pass (intent); the thrown ball must also make contact with the lower part of the leg beginning at the knee.

A pass that simply hits below the knee is not enough - the leg must be moving in an intentional act of defense otherwise it is just a bad pass (and the offense should not be rewarded by returning the ball to them.)

Why it is called wrong has got to be a lack of education or understanding of the rule. But then, dependent upon your viewpoint, we call a lot of things wrong.

Re: Proper application
 

Actually,Tony,in NFHS rules it is a violation to intentionally kick the ball with the knee,also.Rule 4-29 states "knee OR below" as part of the definition.

The NCAA rule defines a "kicked ball" as being with any part of the leg.

Coaches are also uninformed
 

I have to agree with Hawks on this, the rule is misunderstood by many.

I had a play were A1 grabbed the rebound and made the outlet pass to A2 who is running ahead. A2 never turned around, did not see the ball and it hit him in the back. The ball fell and hit A2's sole of his shoe, glanced off B1's leg and then went out of bounds. Coach B very loudly demands that I award the ball to B, because A2 "kicked the ball".

No coach, that was not an INTENTIONAL act, nor was your player's "kick".

JR,
I thought I remembered some difference between the men's and women's NCAA rule on kicked ball. I believe hitting the ball with the thigh is okay in one of them.

As far as I know,the "kicked ball" rule is the same for NCAA men's and women's rules--deliberate act with any part of the leg.If I'm wrong,I'm sure someone will straighten me out.

You're not wrong; Nevada Ref is.

Thanks for clarifying, Bob.
I just had some blurry memory in a dream-like state... no wait that had nothing to do with basketball!

Re: Why would donj ask???
 

I'd like to add one more: the player attempting to receive a pass on the run but juggling the ball in an attempt to gain control called a travel. In the consolation game yesterday, I saw one of those three-step layups where the player didn't get control until just before she shot it. It was called a travel, and I suppose the official could defend the call by deeming the juggling a controlling of the ball, but that would not be accurate.

Re: Re: Why would donj ask???
 

Yeah, coach, but the other side also comes in. Tournament games last Friday. Several cases, where a player doesn't cleanly catch the pass, juggles, then either catches and starts a dribble or catches and shoots the ball. Coach is screaming for a travel every time.

On the way by I said "Gotta have control to be a travel" and he looks at me like I'm nuts :D

After the game, he says that he was told by some very experienced officials that this is always a travel.

I said "Not according to the rule book" :D

Unfortunately, I see this one called all the time by officials. It leads to some inaccurate perceptions. Granted it is an out of control play and looks awful, but it isn't a travel.

I agree with you coach. The "kicked ball" and "travel without control" are called by my <i> varsity </i> partners way more times than I care to admit. Calls like those are why I am so convinced that a firm knowledge (and constant study) of the rules is the most important thing a ref must possess. Many "veteran refs" feel that they have the rules down pat and haven't cracked a book open for years.

Z

Re: Re: Re: Why would donj ask???
 

I had this play tonight and no-called it. Player never had control. Had to T a defender who felt compelled to "comment" on my abilities.

Chuck

The kickball in BBall has a lot of parallels to the hand ball in soccer -- both are grossly misunderstood by fans, players, and coaches. A useful phrase used by some soccer refs to explain the difference is "Hand to ball is a foul, ball to hand is not" -- in other words, you look to see if the hand moved to the ball, or if the ball "found" the hand. Seems like a good rule of thumb for Bball on the kick, too.

Since we got off the original subject of kicking the ball, I would also like to add the inconsistency of a few officials I've observed who call traveling on players sliding across the floor with the ball but don't roll over from their back to stomach or vise versa. Sometimes I think the officials might react to calling a violation because the people in the stands and coaches don't know the rule and think it is traveling. Of course, I think this is how officials learn the game better themselves by seeing these plays and having them happen to them. I know I have. Hopefully they won't call them too often.

My partner on Tuesday night in my college game refused to reset the shot clock b/c the player hit the ball with his thigh. Sigh.

Chuck

<i>The kickball in BBall has a lot of parallels to the hand ball in soccer -- both are grossly misunderstood by fans, players, and coaches. A useful phrase used by some soccer refs to explain the difference is "Hand to ball is a foul, ball to hand is not" -- in other words, you look to see if the hand moved to the ball, or if the ball "found" the hand. Seems like a good rule of thumb for Bball on the kick, too.</i>

I disagree. I've seen a foot come forward and give the ball a pretty good whack, but it was obvious that it was unintenional (player was looking up and didn't even know the ball was at his feet). IMHO, it is strictly up to the official's judgment if it was intentional or not.

Z

Zebra - This same latitude to decide on a moving hand (violation or not) is given in soccer - and if you err on the side of finding it to be intent when there can be any question about intent, you should be fine in both sports. Clearly, a non moving hand that was not extended to play the ball in soccer is the same as a non-moving foot in basketball - neither should be called a violation, all fans want them to be violations, and refs will tend to make the wrong calls in these situations.

Are you kidding,Chuck?

Nope, not kidding. The ball caromed off the player's thigh and went directly OOB. From the Trail, I signalled a reset. The operator reset it to 35. My partner then said, no reset. So we brought it back down to 24. I assumed that he had decided it was simply deflected OOB, and hadn't been kicked. But when we got into the locker room at halftime, I asked him and he said "He hit it above the knee, so it's not a kick, right?" Oh well.

Chuck

Nobody noticed,like the coach of the team that lost the 11 seconds?Sounds like your partner's got a horseshoe up his butt. Did you try to straighten him out at the half,or figure it wasn't worth it?
Btw,whose call was it originally-his or yours?

I'm sure I'm missing something, Chuck, but if it went of the player's thigh, it's not a kick, is it? I could swear it was the knee and below. Help me out here.

I didn't try to straighten him out, partly b/c I had started to doubt myself in the locker room. This is a guy who officiated D1 for 8 years, and is a genuinely good guy. No airs or ego about him. I will work with him again next week, and I may mention that someone had "corrected me" about it.

It was originally his call (as Lead), but it looked like an obvious kick to me, so I gave the reset signal. I guess that was a mistake on my part.


Coach, the NCAA rule is slightly different. If the action is intentional, then it's a kick no matter where it contacts the leg. Any part of the leg is considered to be kicking the ball. As far as the Fed rule goes, tho, you are exactly right! I love having informed coaches on this board. I mean that sincerely. Keep me on my toes, Coach :)

Chuck

I didn't try to straighten him out, partly b/c I had started to doubt myself in the locker room. This is a guy who officiated D1 for 8 years, and is a genuinely good guy. No airs or ego about him. I will work with him again next week, and I may mention that someone had "corrected me" about it.

It was originally his call (as Lead), but it looked like an obvious kick to me, so I gave the reset signal. I guess that was a mistake on my part.[/B][/QUOTE]If your partner's got away with that for 8 years,he does have a horseshoe up his butt. :D

Isn't the mechanic for the guy making the call to also give all the signals,including the re-set? If he doesn't give an obvious re-set though,you should definitely be in talkin' to him to find out why. JMO.

Sigh! this is getting to be a habit,but I'm a nice guy.Here ya go!
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