Clock stopped with 2.5 seconds left. Team A has the arrow. Team A with a 1-point lead and inbounding on the baseline after a made basket by Team B and immediate timeout. The throw-in in tipped by B1, who was defending the throw-in and deflects to where it is obviously going to be intercepted by B2 near the division line. Before B2 catches the ball, however, the horn sounds. The officials did not see the clock start early, but they have definite knowledge that barely 1 second elapsed from the moment of B1's tip to the sound of the horn.

How do you administer this situation?

stan,
Did this happen to you in a Regional? Oh, my!

<li>Officials Manual 113. If conditions warrant a conference, both coaches should be involved in the discussion. .... An official's count is definite information in correcting a timing mistake.

<li>Officials Manual 223: If the scorer's horn or game horn is sounded, either official may recognize it and stop action with a whistle even to the extent of declaring that the ball did not become live or the horn may be ignored if it is sounded after the throw-in has started.

So what can we do?
How about <li>declaring no live ball and going to the arrow. <li>declaring one second ran off and going to the arrow.

This seems to be Referee's decision.
Dang! That's an ugly thought!
...By the way, you can toss it. :rolleyes:

mick

My thought on this would be, not being there of course hard to say. Team A is thowing the ball in from the baseline. Ball deflected by B1 (where is he/she). B2 by the Division line which is maybe 42-47 feet away. I could see where 2.5 seconds could have elasped, depending on where the deflection by B1 was at.

What was definate knowledge that only one second had elapsed?

AK ref SE

[Edited by AK ref SE on Nov 27th, 2002 at 01:32 PM]

[/B][/QUOTE]
stan,
Did this happen to you in a Regional? Oh, my!
[/B][/QUOTE]

Not my game, thankfully.

The official administering the throw in counted silently from time ball was tipped. Horn sounded while he was still on "One". This was an obvious mistake that everyone in the gym realized.

[Edited by stan-MI on Nov 27th, 2002 at 01:43 PM]

With definite knowledge of the timing error, you can reset clock to 1.5 seconds (5-10-1). With the fact that the ball was tipped and not yet controlled when horn sounded, you have to go to the arrow unfortunately. Hopefully arrow is with B.

I say this because the horn signalling the end of a game has the same status as a whistle, the only time that the horn shares that status (a horn signalling shot clock expiration, for example, is not a stoppage - there is no violation until ref determines that there is). This means that the horn sounding an end of period at an innappropriate time is the equivalent of an inadvertent whistle. With an inadvertent whistle and no possession, you must go to arrow.

How about this? Horns blow all the time when the shouldn't. We usually ignore them. Reset the clock to 1.0 second, if that's what the count was when B2 caught the ball, and give the ball to B. Why should the horn kill the play if it was operated incorrectly?

Hawks Coach,
While your response regarding the status of the horn ending a quarter vis-a-vis a whistle is well thought out and presented in a manner that is rather convincing, I can't get past the fact that a horn is still a horn and it is not a whistle. I have always been instructed to blow the whistle when I hear the horn if I have last shot responsibility. Due to your post I am now wondering if that is correct. Does anyone out there know if this is a mechanic in the officials manual?

As for ruling on this play, I would need some more info:
1. Who, if anyone, actually caught this tipped ball when it finally came down?
2. Did the clock run down to zero or did the horn just sound early?
3. Was it just as obvious to everyone in the whole gym that a player from team B would have caught this tipped ball, as it was that the horn was early?
PS
If you really are a coach, you are by far the most rules-knowledgeable one of which I am aware! I have enjoyed reading your posts and am sure that I would enjoy officiating your games.

True, horns do blow all the time...and we do indeed usually ignore them.However a horn blowing inadvertently and a horn blowing to signify the end of a game are quite different IMHO.
The officials would have to get together and determine what to do from the point in time when the horn "ended the game".
If the game was determined, by the officials, of being "ended" prematurely and at a time when the ball was loose...go to the arrow and put the "definite" time back on the clock. (The "definite" time was from the Referee's stated knowledge of such.)

Dude

I went back and forth on this one for a while with regard to horn and whistle. You could decide to interpret the rules in such a way that this was an inadvertent horn and play continued 'til the whistle. And I kind of like that outcome, because it puts the ball where it should be, in B's hands.

Then I looked again at the rules. This was not just any horn. The rule clearly states in two places that the horn ends the period (which makes it different than just an advisory signal, which it is in all other cases). We have a horn and a clock with all zeroes - play stops now.

2-12-8 (Timers duties)
"Indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. <b>This signal terminates player activity.</b>"

5-6 (beginning/end of period)
"Each quarter or extra period begins when the ball first becomes live. It ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired"

No whistle required folks.

There are exceptions provided in the 5-6, but they do not include any allowance for action after an inadvertent horn for end of period. I know that giving the ball to B seems fairer and could probably be done without undue protest from either bench (coach for A will be yelling about your decision to put time on the clock and probably won't even think about AP arrow!). However, it seems that AP is the <i>technically</i> correct decision because there is no player or team control at the time of the horn.

My rules knowledge is strictly courtesty of this board. I am really a coach, no reffing other than scrimmages (and then we play by MY rules - my players definitely like your rules better, because I have many more violations in my rulebook than were ever in your book).

I joined a few years back with a simple backcourt question (cause I KNEW everything else), read a few posts, realized there was more to them there rules than I thought, and I never left. These longtime members won't let you slide on "I think" or "logically, you should" - they make you look at real rules. It has been an education for sure. Gives me something to share with my players.

And I would definitely prefer to have a game reffed by a board member, because at least I know they are working on their game and are probably pretty well versed rules, interpretations, and general game management.

You don't think this horn sounded inadvertently?

I think there is a difference between a horn that sounds with 0:00 on the clock and any other horn. Anything may be determined to be erroneous and therefore inadvertent after the fact. But this horn was sounded with the intent of ending the game, and upon further review, determined to have ended the game early.

That wasn't his argument. He stated that there's a difference because this horn didn't blow inadevertently.

And, the horn didn't end the game, did it? So, why does play automatically have to stop when an inadvertent horn sounds? Is there a rule?

A whistle signifies that the ball has become dead, and player activity ceases. In the case of an inadvertent whistle, the whistle actually indicates the point at which play stops, since the ball did not become dead except by whistle.

A horn with 0:00 on the clock, inadvertent or not, causes player activity to cease. The ball becomes dead at that moment.

A horn isn't whistle, is it?

The rule says the ball becomes dead when a whistle blows.

It doesn't say the ball becomes dead when a horn sounds.

5-6 quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired....

6-7-6 ball becomes dead when time expires for a quarter or extra period.

Tony

Try this one. Team B up 1, 3 seconds left, Team A inbounding. Being the good ref you are, you maintain your own count at this point in the game.

Time expires and horn goes off with shot in air, shot misses, all players save one under the boards are turning away (Team B is celebrating, Team A dejected). A1 taps rebound in and is also dejected, knowing hte game is over. With tap falling through basket, you blow whistle ending game by your count. Is the basket good?

Fundamental 16.

Help please - what is Fundamental 16?

Which rule specifically says this with respect to the end of period? And I thought the general rule was the ball is dead, and whistle blows to signal that the ball has become dead (OOB, foul, etc). The ball usually is dead prior to the whistle blowing to signal this fact. One clear exception to this general rule is an inadvertent whistle, which causes a dead ball where none had already occurred.

If the horn blows legitimately at the end of a period to signal that time has expired, the ball is dead at that moment. Your whistle after the horn merely confirms that fact the ball is dead and the period is over. But a shot released after the horn and before your confirming whistle does not count. Ball was already dead.

From <i>Officials Manual</i>: Basketball Rules Fundamentals -
16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (It is already dead.)

The "Basketball Rules Fundamentals" are also in the back of the NFHS rule book-somewhere around the signals.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 29th, 2002 at 09:31 PM]

Interesting feedback. I think Hawks Coach has the correct rules interpretation, put time back on the clock per 5-10 and go with the arrow per 6-3e. I'm sure it wouldn't make Team B happy.

This actually happened in a district final. The officials put 1.5 back on the clock and gave the ball to B for a throw-in on the sideline nearest to where B2 had caught the ball (immediately after the horn). They sold it to the coaches without much trouble, and B missed a last-second shot. If B had won the game with a last-second shot, and Coach A had gone home, consulted the rule book and called the supervisor, do you think there might be some repercussions for the officials?

Even though it might seem unfair, I guess I'd stick with the rules and go with the arrow (which was pointing in favor of A).

Just playing devil's advocate, guys! http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk...e/evilgrin.gif Trying to get everyone to do a little thinking and digging. Note the :) at the beginning of each post. ;)

It's unfortunate but there's not much you can do, other than reset the clock and go the arrow.