Medically Trained- Officials

[AK ref SE]

I just posted on another thread along the lines of this!

How many officials out there are EMTs, Paramedics, Nurses, Doctors or somewhere inbetween?

My question is......Player injured what do you or do you not do, and why?

Just a thought

AK ref SE

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I am trained to a level comparable with EMT Basic - Volunteer National Ski Patrol. I have not offered any medical care when I am am officiating. I would step forward if there were reason to believe my immediate help were needed.

I have had a player, while driving for a lay-up during a break away play - all alone with no defense, BREAK HIS LEG.

Completely untouched; just going up and his leg completely buckled below the knee - closed tib/fib fracture. I consoled and left him alone, medically. There was obvious deformity that I did not align. Capillary refill below the break was good. Pain was not extreme. The ambulance arrived within 5 minutes. A couple of them were fellow patrollers.

I have offered aid to an asthmatic. Again, not much that I really did. Instructed patient to suck some epinephrine and rest for a few..... something they already knew.

I see your point. There may be a need for medical care but I haven't seen anything life threatening yet where I needed to step in. And when all is said and done the game needs to continue - changing roles might not be as easy as we think. Additionally, as dressed for my game, I am not prepared with anything but medical knowledge - I have no gloves or medical supplies. I suppose that I could use the trainer's equipment if there were need.

I would avoid it unless there is a definite need -danger to the injured patient.

[rainmaker]

I've been told, it doesn't matter what your training is, think about your insurance. If I were trained medically, and I got involved and something went wrong, my liability wouldn't cover.

Even so, if it were a matter of life and death, I'd intervene. Or even in a case where permanent damage would probably follow, if I could help, I would.

But the general instructions around here are, stay away.

[Marty Rogers]

I am an EMT in Massachusetts. We are not mandated to provide any care when not on duty (in uniform, on the job).
However, we do have Good Samaritan Laws to help protect us should we provide care while off duty. This could get tricky while officiating, I suppose. I agree that I would not administer to a player unless it became necessary (no one else available to care for patient in serious trouble). Otherwise, I would not intervene. However, I would (do my best to) prevent any further harm to the player. For example, I would strongly suggest that the player not be moved if he has a possible c-spine injury, broken limb, etc. More likely, I would insist that they wait for the medics to properly care for the hurt player.

So, in the best of situations, I'd take no action at all. In the worst, I'd do what I feel I must to do. I do have a jump kit in my car with gloves, etc. Hopefully, a trainer in house will be able to attend to most injuries. Above that, there is EMS to respond. In reality, as an EMT, I could not just stand there and watch a child suffer if there was no one there (or coming) to help him.

[cmonref]

I am an EMT basic, pt, and an athletic trainer. you would be covered under the "good samaritan law" if you provide care and use your head while you are doing it. i have never had to deal with anything such as the examples provided on the court, but i would definately get involved if needed, but if it was being attended to by someone else who is qualified, i would leave it. you just can't leave some injured kid suffer when you could make a difference!!

[AK ref SE]

I have always been told that I am not in the official capacity of a paramedic when I am officiating a sport. So I do not render assistance to an injured player. I know what the Good Samaritan law protects and what it does not protect. I know what a good lawyer will protect and what the other person lawyer will protect also.
It is different when life limb or sight is involved, But what can I do without the proper equipment....the basics.

Make sure they have an Airway, they are breathing, and that they are not bleeding all over the place.

AK ref SE

[drinkeii]

I am somewhat appalled by the some of the comments, but did feel a little better as I continued to read. However, I feel that there is a thread running through this conversation that does not belong with ANY EMS provider under any circumstances.

I am an EMT in PA and have been for 6 years - I have been officiating sports for 4, including soccer and basketball. I have had several times which I have had to render assistance, both in soccer and in basketball. Although in none of these cases did I have a "duty to act" as defined by the law, I did have a duty to act as defined by common sense and human compassion.

I have a VERY large problem with people who say that they are more concerned with liability issues than doing what is right. Why did you learn a set of lifesaving skills (many of which can be performed with makeshift materials if the first aid kit is not handy) if you planned to stand back and watch someone injured and just say "well, I'm not in my uniform and don't have a handy-dandy jump kit with me, so I'm going to sit back and wait for the people whose job it is right now to come and do it, even though I could be helping."

I feel you are risking more liability by standing back and watching than you are by helping out. When someone there finds out you are an EMT, First Responder, Paramedic, etc, how are you going to explain to the lawyers why you chose to sit back and do nothing?

Good Samaritan laws (at least in PA) protect you as long as you provide care consistant with what you were trained to do. This applied whether or not you had a duty to act, whether or not you are wearing your uniform for your EMS service or Fire Department, and whether or not you have that nice little jump kit within reach.

A quote from earlier: Completely untouched; just going up and his leg completely buckled below the knee - closed tib/fib fracture. I consoled and left him alone, medically. There was obvious deformity that I did not align. Capillary refill below the break was good. Pain was not extreme. The ambulance arrived within 5 minutes. A couple of them were fellow patrollers.

Nice of you to ignore your training and just talk to him.

Another quote: But the general instructions around here are, stay away.

Nice to know - I think if I had a kid playing in these leagues, I would pull them out if I knew there was a medically trained person being told "Don't intevene... just stay away if they get injured".

A final quote: I have always been told that I am not in the official capacity of a paramedic when I am officiating a sport. So I do not render assistance to an injured player. I know what the Good Samaritan law protects and what it does not protect. I know what a good lawyer will protect and what the other person lawyer will protect also.
It is different when life limb or sight is involved, But what can I do without the proper equipment....the basics.

No, you're not in the official capacity of a paramedic - and a medic follows different guidelines, protocols, etc, since they are acting under a doctor. Most of the medic skills that are taught require specialized equipment. However, you had to become an EMT before a medic, and those are basic skills which you are also trained to use what is available to serve as your supplies if needed. You don't need your drug kit to be able to render simple aid to an injured player. As for the lawyers, I certainly after all your training, you have more concern for the patient and doing what is right than what a lawyer is going to say later. As for missing equipment - you can do a LOT without the "proper" equipment. I addressed this above.

I know my opinions can be controversial - but I feel that I need to do what is right, and having the training and standing back and watching someone suffer is not doing what is right just because I'm not on the clock as an EMT.

[AK ref SE]

Drinkeii-

Well since you addressed one of my qoutes, I will address my answer better to you. I have been a Paramedic for almost 20 years (Coast Guard Flight Medic).... I have been trained to pluck people off sides of mountains, out of freezing water and then fly them back hundreds of miles for hours on end. DO NOT TALK TO ME ABOUT HUMAN COMPASSION.
When in the capacity of officiating and someone gets injured I assess the situation, at most of our HS games there are EMT's on site. I have higher training than most of them, But they are there to do a job, same as myself.
I have talked to lawyers on this subject because I do have a lot of human compassion. In my case, If a player has an Airway, is Breathing, and has Circulation, and no threat to Life, Limb or Vision....I am there as an Official and nothing else. Does that make me cold blooded and heartless.
One other note! Most of Lawyers, Judges, and fans where I officiate know what I do at my day job.

AK ref SE

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by drinkeii


I have a VERY large problem with people who say that they are more concerned with liability issues than doing what is right. Why did you learn a set of lifesaving skills (many of which can be performed with makeshift materials if the first aid kit is not handy) if you planned to stand back and watch someone injured and just say "well, I'm not in my uniform and don't have a handy-dandy jump kit with me, so I'm going to sit back and wait for the people whose job it is right now to come and do it, even though I could be helping."

Whether you believe it or not, you can test this out in court. Go ahead and help a kid or touch a kid that is hurt during a game. You might spend your life savings defending yourself in court when you are sued for further injury, whether you did anything or not. You are an official on that court or on that field. If you have a conflict with that, then stop officiating if you feel your committment to saving people or helping people is too strong. But the problem is, most people are not going to realize that you are an EMT or doctor on the court. They are going to see you as an official first and after they sue you, they will find out what your professional background is. And what happens if you are considered to be interfering with the EMTs that are their in "their" official capacity. Now you can be found as neglagent for getting in their way.

There really is no right and wrong here. Just like everything else we talk about here, you can do what you feel is best. But sometimes what you feel is best can get you in a heep of trouble and put you in a very hard to get out of situation. I might know CPR, but that does not mean I am the one that will apply it if I am officiating. That is why there are trainers and EMTs at sporting events to begin with.

Just a thought.

Peace

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Whether you believe it or not, you can test this out in court. Go ahead and help a kid or touch a kid that is hurt during a game. You might spend your life savings defending yourself in court when you are sued for further injury, whether you did anything or not. You are an official on that court or on that field. If you have a conflict with that, then stop officiating if you feel your committment to saving people or helping people is too strong. But the problem is, most people are not going to realize that you are an EMT or doctor on the court. They are going to see you as an official first and after they sue you, they will find out what your professional background is. And what happens if you are considered to be interfering with the EMTs that are their in "their" official capacity. Now you can be found as neglagent for getting in their way.

There really is no right and wrong here. Just like everything else we talk about here, you can do what you feel is best. But sometimes what you feel is best can get you in a heep of trouble and put you in a very hard to get out of situation. I might know CPR, but that does not mean I am the one that will apply it if I am officiating. That is why there are trainers and EMTs at sporting events to begin with.

Just a thought.

Peace

Interesting - because as I understand the law, the good samaritan law, it applies no matter what colors you're wearing or what uniform you happen to be wearing at the time. So you would refuse to do CPR if necessary, just because that's not why you're there? That kind of gets rid of the whole idea of the public being trained in CPR - since it's not their job (person walking down the street...), they aren't supposed to use it because it might get them in trouble. Something is wrong with the logic here.

Also, I work a LARGE number of events where there is no EMT or trainer present. Maybe where you do, there is, but there are a large number of events (usually gradeschool, often catholic school leagues or church leagues) where there is no trainer.

As for interfering with the EMT's, hmmm - if you are trained, you wouldn't be interfering... you either would be helping, or you would just be standing around (or going back to running the game). Again, the question of liability seems to come up here, and that was my point in the first place - why would you get the training and put yourself in a situation where you should be using it, and then say "sorry, not my job..."?

As for the person before who responded - I am not questioning your compasion, nor am I trying to make this personal. As I said before, however, the attitude that "this isn't my job" doesn't fly with me. You said that you have worked for 20+ years in extreme situations. That is your job... what my concern seems to be when you punch out, do you pack up your skills and say "not my job now..." As much as I hate lawsuits (mainly because they seem to be for stupid things), I would much rather support a lawsuit against a person who I know had training and failed to act (with or without a legal "duty to act"), than I would against a person who applied that training in the proper fashion and something went wrong.

As for what you said: I have talked to lawyers on this subject because I do have a lot of human compassion. In my case, If a player has an Airway, is Breathing, and has Circulation, and no threat to Life, Limb or Vision....I am there as an Official and nothing else. Does that make me cold blooded and heartless.
One other note! Most of Lawyers, Judges, and fans where I officiate know what I do at my day job. (my part begins here) - I find it very unlikely that a lawyer would say "stay away from the person - that's not your job..."

I guess that also takes out all of the volunteer fireman/emt's, since it's technically NEVER their job, except when they get called. So to make an extreme example, I am in my territory as a volunteer - I see someone hurt. Am I supposed to say "Hold on there - I can't do anything until we are officially dispatched... lemme go find a phone and call, and when my pager goes off in my bag over there on the sideline, I'll be happy to help you." Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it. And there are several venues in the area in which I am a fireman/emt that I have in the past and will probably again officiate, in basketball or soccer, both somewhat contact sports with the potential for serious injury.



[Edited by drinkeii on Dec 2nd, 2002 at 02:23 PM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Drinkeii

I think you are missing some of the point. We are not the last opportunity for someone to receive definitive medical care.

As an EMT performing his work, you are the beginning point of providing care and you are the TRANSPORTATION.

As a medically knowledgeable person that just happens to be officiating the game, I can begin the care (ABC's) and have stated that I would do so. However, I'm not going to leave the court (and leave the patient) to get equipment. And surely, I'm not going to leave the game to transport this patient to a hospital. If you are an EMT, you are completely aware that these kind of efforts only complicate the EMT's work once they arrive at the accident.

I could probably figure out some way to splint a broken leg but why? The EMTs, with equipment and transportation, will be there immediately (I am not the last person in line to provide care). The EMTs will surely remove whatever table leg or trombone slide I might have applied to stabilize a fracture. The removal process and resplinting will only add to the patient's discomfort. (I have offered nothing to the situation)

I will protect the patient. I will protect myself. I will protect those around me. I cannot meet these objectives without equipment and will not attempt to provide further care unless there is immediate need (e.g. patient is in trouble; I'm snowed in and the ambulance can't get there... I will do my utmost to help).

I am very compassionate... that's why I'm a volunteer. My only compensation is the thank-you and the satisfaction of being able to show my compassion by offerring assistance. Quite frankly, the feeling of successfully offerring medical assistance is similar to the feeling of successfully officiating a hard fought basketball game. Both are positions of leardership/authority. Thank-yous for being in charge and performing well as the leader are rare.

[JRutledge]

You are assuming that all states have the same laws. You are also assuming that all states have the same interpretation of the laws. And you are also assuming that you will not be sued based on what you consider "good semaritan" laws. Liability has many forms. If you consider it to be your job and you mess up, you can be sued anyway. Do not think just because you are an EMT, it relieves you from responsibility or liability. So if you feel that assisting is what you want to do, go right ahead. And if those schools have to EMT or trainers involved in the contest, that opens them up for liability too. Do what you feel is right, but undertand you are an official on that court or field first. If you were not, you would not be wearing a striped shirt. Anything you choose to do in that striped shirt, that is how you will be judged, whether you have training in a specific field or not. Again, you can take your chances and get sued defending what you feel the law protects. But considering the climate that we are in, I hope you have the funds or the lawyer to protect yourself from being sued. People get sued everyday that have not done anything wrong. This is a free country and you can choose to do what you feel is right. But understand that everyone is not going to agree with you on this. And if a family gets a lawyer because you have "interfered" in their mind with the professionals that were in charge, then that is something you will have to face. The NF tells us in many sports to not take an active role in dealing with injured players or participants. They have made this clear in several sports. Now remember if you choose to ignore that warning, then you are leaving yourself open to further liability. You can be held liabible for not following the rules that are in place. We talk all the time about following rules at this board, this is just one of many. And if you do not follow them, your are doing so at your own risk.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Dec 2nd, 2002 at 02:34 PM]

[rockyroad]

[

[B]

Originally posted by drinkeii


As for the person before who responded - I am not questioning your compasion, nor am I trying to make this personal.

[Edited by drinkeii on Dec 2nd, 2002 at 02:23 PM]

Really??? sure seems like it to me...I think, based on this thread and the other recent thread about calling violations in blow-out games, that you need to lighten up just a tad...maybe go have a few of those "brown pops" that Dan and JR are always tal;king about...

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by rockyroad
[B][

Really??? sure seems like it to me...I think, based on this thread and the other recent thread about calling violations in blow-out games, that you need to lighten up just a tad...maybe go have a few of those "brown pops" that Dan and JR are always tal;king about...

I'm not sure where you're going with this. On one hand, people in this thread are saying to follow some legal rules that don't seem to exist really (just excuses not to get involved), and in the other, they are saying to ignore the rules because they feel that it is more appropriate. Interesting how 2 different topics can provide 2 completely opposite viewpoints.

As for not calling things... why be there? But that was addressed in the other thread. We're there to keep the game under control and enforce the rules. Not to decide which rules to use and which ones we want to ignore at that point in time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
[B][

Really??? sure seems like it to me...I think, based on this thread and the other recent thread about calling violations in blow-out games, that you need to lighten up just a tad...maybe go have a few of those "brown pops" that Dan and JR are always tal;king about...