Scorekeeping Error in Playoff Game
 

Hey All,
Here's a blog posting about some potential scorekeeper shenanigans in a D3AA semifinal game out here.

Did Serra goof in win over Diamond Ranch? *Update: Reaction from coach Mike James
By Fred Robledo on March 1, 2011 9:44 AM | Permalink | Comments (22) | ShareThis

Scorebook error?: In Diamond Ranch's 82-70 overtime loss to Gardena Serra in Saturday's Division 3AA girls semifinal at North Torrance HS, there were controversial scorebook issues that may have had a direct outcome in the game. In fact, in a letter addressed to Serra principal Mike Wagner on behalf of several Diamond Ranch parents (which I obtained), they want an apology, even suggesting that Serra should forfeit over what they feel was a huge injustice. Diamond Ranch coach Mike James explained what happened to me on Monday, but said the school is not protesting, though he is upset at how the events unfolded.

Clarification: coach Mike James filed a protest after the game, which was immediately turned down, he said. When I called CIF on Monday to ask if anything had been filed in regards to the game, they said no. What I gather from this is there was obviously a decision made after the game, and it ended there.

What happened: James said that Serra's leading scorer Sierra Thompson (28 points) fouled out with just under a minute to play in Saturday's game. James said Thompson left the game, sat on the bench, and put a jacket on looking distraught. At that time Serra's scorekeeper alerted the Serra bench, saying it only had Thompson for three fouls. James immediately challenged, noting his scorekeeper and bench scorekeeper had Thompson for five fouls. James said while looking at Serra's book, he also noted Serra had Diamond Ranch players marked with fouls who never played in the game. The officials gathered and determined the "home" book was the book of record, allowing Thompson back into the game with only three fouls. Thompson then hit a 3-pointer with 13 seconds left to give Serra a two-point lead. Chelsea Barnes scored in the closing seconds to send the game into overtime. Thompson then scored 10 points in overtime to seal the victory. James knows there is nothing he can do now, but he said his athletic director watched the game on video and sure enough, he claims Thompson had five fouls.

Coach Mike James responds: Just to make sure that everyone is clear on this situation. There was a protest filed by Diamond Ranch. It was turned down. The ruling was that it was an officials judgment to allow this player to re-enter the game. The Diamond Ranch scorekeeper was checking with the official book to make sure that they matched up. All of a sudden they didn't match up in the 4th quarter with 32 seconds left in the game. There were players from Diamond Ranch who had fouls and didn't even play in the game. There were also players that fouled out who only had 3 fouls. This was a great game between 2 great teams. Someone has to win and someone has to lose. The bigger question is are we really to the point where winning at all cost is more important than sportsmanship and integrity. For these kids to have to lose in this manner just makes for a hard pill to swallow. Especially when the video clearly shows this player had fouled out.
CIF can't just turn a blind eye to situations like this. Once you get to this level of the playoffs we have 3 man officiating crews and neutral sites. They need to take the next step and have a neutral party as the official scorer. This will of course will not help us this season since what is done is done. I just want people reading this to know that Diamond Ranch did talk to CIF officials about this situation. With all the evidence that was presented to them they have to think that at the very least there is SOMETHING there, and they need to make some changes in the near future.

Sincerely,

Michael James
Diamond Ranch Girls Basketball

: Let me just say that as a veteran scorekeeper I am totally mortified at the potential of misconduct that allegedly occurred at this game.This situation is a black mark on table people nationwide.That being said-How do you prevent this situation from occurring in your games?

It's usually not difficult for a crew to remember who called how many fouls on a star player. In a second round game last week, a player had a triple-double (27 pts, 15 rebs, 10 blocks). She also had 4 fouls, the first two called by me and the second two called by my U2. If there had been a problem with the book and her fouls, I can assure you that 4 would have been the correct answer.

Might not be quite as easy for a role player but I can usually recall who have called fouls on.

Calling it misconduct is jumping the gun just a bit, don't you think? It may have just been careless or sloppy....as might be suggested by all of the other supposed errors.

If the scorers had been comparing records after every entry like they should, this would have been resolved without incident at the time of the fouls.

The protesting coach should train his scorer to do their job correctly to prevent such issues.

Damn, a high school scorer may have screwed up. Quick, get the pitchforks, light the torches....we're off to the castle. :eek:

I think the CIF should fly in chseagle for ALL playoff games. I know that would be a tough task for anybody but I'm sure he's up to it.

WOW.

There is some serious gross incompetence by this table crew. There's no denying that.

By having fouls recorded for people that didn't even play in the game definitely should raise eyebrows at minimum, and demand a protest - even if known that it won't go anywhere.

If the items presented above are true, then at least 8 errors were made.

The lesson to be learned is the tough-to-swallow pill that the Vs could have prevented this by sitting a person next to the H book and watch them record everything fine. That's WAY beyond due diligence, seeing how the first 3 quarters were deemed correct.

I have no problems questioning how this happened and one can only wonder if it wasn't done intentionally. Ya, that's a tough accusation, but how does something like that happen? What possible set of legitimate thought processes cause this to happen?

Don't know about Socal, but I can tell you that in a couple of the Norcal sections an alternate official is assigned to the postseason games at the neutral sites. This official sits at the table and keeps a record of the AP arrow as well as can track some other game notes such as TOs and team fouls in each half. There is no neutral book at the moment. There are only home and visiting books. It would be very simple to have the alt official keep the official book. That is what was done in MD when I was there years ago.

Misfeasance, malfeasance, and nonfeasance are all kinds of misconduct, don't you think? They were obliged not to be careless or sloppy.

I did not accuse outright misconduct my friends-that's why I used the word "Potential" in my post. If the first three quarters were correct in both books that raises some serious questions in my mind. In my games this is why I started putting the player # next to the corresponding team foul. We use the Mark V's at my school so you have to create a space in that column for it to work.

Nevadaref,
We do not use the alternate official down here in the Southern Section. It was suggested by some people on the newspaper website I found this post from that neutral scorekeepers be used. Its an idea that would fall flat on its face in this budgetary environment but one I would be in total agreement with.

Concur
 

When I have good, conscientious scorekeepers in my Rec Leagues, I make this similar recommendation to write the number in the block over the foul number or in the blank. Certainly helps minimize these types of issues and is easier to trace back.

Of course, I'm just a lowly official and don't have a Scorekeepers "Rule Book" or "Case Book." ;)

I interpreting "misconduct" as a conscious act...purposeful and deliberate.

I don't view unintended errors, whether due to incompetence, sloppiness or other reasons, as "misconduct".

OK, but your definition is idiosyncratic. Research misconduct, for example, includes negligent plagiarism and negligent omissions of relevant results.

So is this the start of a petition to get one published?

No

You have to have a poll first before you can petition for anything. See the FAQs. It's a forum rule.

Better be a scientific poll to boot

I was not setting up anything, I was just asking a question.

You have to have a poll before you can ask a question about a petition.

Best ask the question in poll form...it's the only reliable way to get answers.

It doesn't matter. It's now too late. We have to charge you the poll tax.

Rules are rules.

And he also has to petition us to ask that question about his petition to have a poll. And when chseagle does that, then we have to have a poll as to whether we should allow that petition.

"This whole court is out of order!" (And Justice For All ) ...
 

Man. Don't you just love Bobby's Rules of Order?

I thought the penalty was a week of no posting.

Even with the forms I use, I put the number in the corresponding team foul spot just for that reason.

Whever one of the teams I am involved with is on the road and the home team has had past issues with sloppy scorekeeping, I will be dilligent to a tee when it comes to verifying time outs and fouls.

Dot The I's, Cross The T's ...
 

What?

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...39593895050793

Poor communcations
 

How can there be fouls given to players who were not even in the game? Also good communications between the score keepers of both teams should of prevented this. When a foul is reported talk out loud with the number of the player and the number of fouls on that player. if there is a disagreement solve the problem right then. This sounds like flat out cheating.

I used to do the scoring for my step-son's AAU team just prior to my re-entry into officiating. The most trouble I ever had with another scorer was when they were cheering, complaining about calls, and plain not paying attention. Fanboys or Fanmoms have no business at the table.

We now can call California the table incompetence Capital of the world :mad: :mad: :mad:

After the issue where we have a scorekeeper accused of potential misconduct in changing the star player's foul count from five to three we have an issue in the D1A section final.

This game according to what was officially recorded on the scoreboard ended on this buzzer beater.But in the blog it notes there was a scoring controversy in the first quarter.
Amazing game-winner leaves both teams in tears (video) - OC Varsity - OC Varsity

The first quarter score should have been 10-9 red as based on this tape posted on YouTube.
YouTube - 3-3-2011 CIF Division 1A Championship Game - Troy vs. Edison - 1st Quarter (1/6)

*The team's scorekeepers each showed a score of 8-7 when the board showed 8-8.However when one of them attempted to protest they were told to be quiet or leave the arena (according to another blog).I imagine after that threat the team scorekeepers corrected their books to the board and play resumed with the period ending in a 10-10 tie.
They also went into the half tied at 22.White led by one after three.Red led by one when the video of the buzzer beater starts.

I was at this game as a fan but was not seated behind the table.I sat in the section next to white's bench so I could not tell what was being said table side.

Our state has attempted to right this wrong by setting the two up for a rematch on Thursday night in White's gym as part of the state tournament.

Just for you, BillyMac, I'm going to put one of those in my basketball bag from now on. :D

Which Sport ???
 

Good idea if you want to tee up a coach.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/...026cc06f_m.jpg

If they do want to set it right, you don't re-play the game. Just play the overtime that should have happened anyways.

But ya, some pretty serious errors down your way. Lesson learned: have a rep at the scorer's table and check after foul, point, and delay of game.

Really? Because of 1 point in the first quarter?

"Don't like"

I actually don't trust the blogged accounting of the situation. Especially the part about the "threats" towards the scorers.

Well-how else would you explain the two of them potentially meeting for a second time in five days with what happened the first time?

Here is an account of the situation from a fan sitting behind the table on a So Cal website:


: : The facts: the official book was done by an adult & assigned by CIF. The two unofficial books that are invited to sit at the score table, i thought to help in situations like this were 1 from Edison & 1 from Troy. The Troy unofficial score keeper immediately caught the mistake, player from Edison in middle of first quarter awarded 2 free throws missed first made second= 1pt, but was awarded 2 pts (watch the video on you tube it is very clear what happened, video is under Troy vs Edison). Troy unofficial score keeper went to Edison unofficial score keeper to check and Edison score keeper had same as troy. Troy unofficial score keeper then went to CIF official score keeper to advise on mistake and was treated rudely and told if he he did not go and sit down he would have him removed from arena. Troy unofficial score keeper then advised Troy coach Roger Anderson that him and edison score keeper had diff score than official scorekeeper & why. Coach Anderson immediately went to official score keeper to get fixed, no luck. They had meeting w/ refs but not w/ unofficial score keepers & made no change. Why have the unofficial score keepers there if their useless. I commend the edison unofficial score keeper for his honesty. Not only did both unofficials no the score was wrong they new why & how it happened. CIF was more worried about being wrong then getting it right. Why be rude to Troy unofficial score keeper. Both Troy & Edison score keeper should have been treated w total respect & used as a cross check & as a resource. Troy principle & ath dir also got involved. They wanted to protest or appeal but CIF has no process for this. Game decided by score keeper. Not Edisons fault they did nothing wrong their girls played like Champions also not Troys fault their girls did nothing wrong and also played like Champions. It's CIF's fault they made a mistake and should be "Fair & Honorable" & operate w/ integrity all things they preach and own up. Instead the Troy girls will pay the price, but lets be clear w/ the facts.

I have no idea what happened, and tend to not view fans' statements with much authority. That said, even if it's all true, I think the idea of scheduling a 'rematch' because of one erroneous point in the first quarter is ridiculous.

If there had been a correctable error that was never corrected, with the same result (an extra point), would they do the same thing? I would hope not.

The solution is simple: they play a 4-minute overtime.

Have the CIF scorer that screwed pay the officials. Maybe that'll teach him.

I don't trust these "facts" until I hear something from the CIF explaining why the game is being replayed.

The game is not being replayed-All I said was that the two have been set up to meet Thursday night in the State tournament should they both advance and that I believe it is the state's attempt to right the wrong in that section final.

Hold on now.

This is being passed on as fact when actually it's just someone's opinion. Not kosher.

My guess is would be is that the brackets they were put in are leading them to meet again in 5 days. Why does is have to be some big CIF conspiracy?

So what you believe isn't really fact. We don't have any idea what really happened...and neither do you.

Got it.

Fanboys.....:rolleyes:

Point taken BadNewsRef-
When reporting incidents like this we need to try and be neutral in telling the story while not letting opinions guide us.I did that at the end of the original post about this game and the potential State tourney meeting on Thursday and apologize.

Which is why I posted this:

Someone sitting in the stands at an NBA sized arena was privy to all the discussions going on at the scorer's table. :rolleyes: Yeah right.