Couldn't help but think of todays...

[APG]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

How can that be a PC foul? The center slid towards her to cut her off, and was never set. She clearly undercut the ballhandler as she was going up for the shot. That's a blocking foul on the center.

Pause it at the 54 second mark. The defender has two feet on the ground and torso facing the defender. She slides laterally (as is her right due to gaining LGP) to maintain her LGP. At the 55 second mark, she still has her torso in the path of the dribbler when the dribbler makes contact with the defender. The dribbler is not airborne when the contact was initiated. There is no undercutting of an airborne player.

Lastly, being set has nothing to do with being in LGP to take a charge. If you use that language with players and coaches, you're just perpetuating a myth.

[KMBReferee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Pause it at the 54 second mark. The defender has two feet on the ground and torso facing the defender. She slides laterally (as is her right due to gaining LGP) to maintain her LGP. At the 55 second mark, she still has her torso in the path of the dribbler when the dribbler makes contact with the defender. The dribbler is not airborne when the contact was initiated. There is no undercutting of an airborne player.

Lastly, being set has nothing to do with being in LGP to take a charge. If you use that language with players and coaches, you're just perpetuating a myth.

You can not simply pause it at :54 and think you can make an accurate call on that play. Movement is still occurring. And according to the legal guarding position rule, you can only move laterally or obliquely provided you do not move towards the opponent when contact occurs.

When you cut off a slasher, you're moving towards that player. Note: the rule doesn't say move forward; it says moving towards. You must stop the motion before contact occurs (that's what I mean by "set"), and the center didn't. And since she didn't, she is liable for the contact.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

You can not simply pause it at :54 and think you can make an accurate call on that play. Movement is still occurring. And according to the legal guarding position rule, you can only move laterally or obliquely provided you do not move towards the opponent when contact occurs.

When you cut off a slasher, you're moving towards that player. Note: the rule doesn't say move forward; it says moving towards. You must stop the motion before contact occurs (that's what I mean by "set"), and the center didn't. And since she didn't, she is liable for the contact.

The movement I see is pretty much at a right angle to the path of the dribbler.
Legal guarding position was obtained, and the dribbler created the contact.

[APG]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

You can not simply pause it at :54 and think you can make an accurate call on that play. Movement is still occurring. And according to the legal guarding position rule, you can only move laterally or obliquely provided you do not move towards the opponent when contact occurs.

When you cut off a slasher, you're moving towards that player. Note: the rule doesn't say move forward; it says moving towards. You must stop the motion before contact occurs (that's what I mean by "set"), and the center didn't. And since she didn't, she is liable for the contact.

All I can say then, is you're seeing a different play than everyone. IMO, the player obtains LGP at the 54 second mark. As is her right by obtaining it, she is allowed to move laterally to maintain it. I don't have her moving towards the defender because she takes the contact in the torso. That fact that she was moving or wasn't "set" has no baring on this play because she has LGP. She doesn't get to the position after the player went airborne because the contact originated before the player was airborne.

I will try and make a slow motion clip of the play to make it easier.

[KMBReferee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

All I can say then, is you're seeing a different play than everyone. IMO, the player obtains LGP at the 54 second mark. As is her right by obtaining it, she is allowed to move laterally to maintain it. I don't have her moving towards the defender because she takes the contact in the torso. That fact that she was moving or wasn't "set" has no baring on this play because she has LGP. She doesn't get to the position after the player went airborne because the contact originated before the player was airborne.

I will try and make a slow motion clip of the play to make it easier.

I'm seeing the right play. The issue isn't what we see as much as how we enforce the rule.

The fact that she was moving DOES have barring on this play, because the movement is TOWARDS the ballhandler. There's no ifs, ands, or buts on this; that's the exception the LGP rule makes. And the center was moving towards the player and never stopped the movement. The center is not allowed to move laterally if it's towards the ballhandler.

[walter]

I guess you are going to stand alone. Since it is the dribbler, time and distance don't matter. I see the secondary defender, after establishing LGP, moving laterally, beating the ballhandler to the spot and the contact is clearly center torso. I have PC without a doubt. There is nothing that says a defender has to be set/still to get the PC call. As for the other play, from the angle we have on the video, I have a clean black and play on.

[APG]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

I'm seeing the right play. The issue isn't what we see as much as how we enforce the rule.

The fact that she was moving DOES have barring on this play, because the movement is TOWARDS the ballhandler. There's no ifs, ands, or buts on this; that's the exception the LGP rule makes. And the center was moving towards the player and never stopped the movement. The center is not allowed to move laterally if it's towards the ballhandler.

I don't know what your definition of towards is.



To me, towards the defender is any movement in the blue region with the defender being the N in the picture. If a defender has LGP, they may move in any direction (including the straight line) in the white to maintain that position. I have the defender moving laterally to maintain. She legally gets to the spot before the dribbler and is there before she's airborne.

[KMBReferee]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

To me, towards the defender is any movement in the blue region with the defender being the N in the picture. If a defender has LGP, they may move in any direction (including the straight line) in the white to maintain that position. I have the defender moving laterally to maintain. She legally gets to the spot before the dribbler and is there before she's airborne.

Once again, the rule says toward, not forward. There's a difference. You can move toward someone without moving forward (which is actually what the center did). And you can move forward without moving toward someone that's to the north of you.

When a defender moves in to cut a slasher off, they're moving toward the dribbler. Doesn't matter what their shoulders or torso are pointing; it's towards them. Therefore they have to take responsibility for any contact drawn due to their movement. The center could have easily stopped her movement and ran parallel with the slasher and made a play on the ball. Instead, she moved under the dribbler's forward movement and made contact.

[APG]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

Once again, the rule says toward, not forward. There's a difference. You can move toward someone without moving forward (which is actually what the center did). And you can move forward without moving toward someone that's to the north of you.

When a defender moves in to cut a slasher off, they're moving toward the dribbler. Doesn't matter what their shoulders or torso are pointing; it's towards them. Therefore they have to take responsibility for any contact drawn due to their movement. The center could have easily stopped her movement and ran parallel with the slasher and made a play on the ball. Instead, she moved under the dribbler's forward movement and made contact.

Well you're using a definition of towards that I've never heard anyone use in relation to legal guarding position. I can concede that maybe from the lead's angle, the player was moving towards (my definition of, not yours) the dribbler. That's a big maybe though. From the angle provided, I'd stick with my PC call. I will say that it seems that you're the only one so far to call a block while the rest have been near unanimous in saying player control (from the angle shown).

Perhaps my view of this play is wrong and someone will come along and explain it better to me. Or perhaps someone will come along and explain this play and LGP better than I have.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

Once again, the rule says toward, not forward. There's a difference. You can move toward someone without moving forward (which is actually what the center did). And you can move forward without moving toward someone that's to the north of you.

The way you're viewing this, the rule is pointless; as there's no way a player can move laterally to cut off an opponent without breaking your interpretation of "towards."

There is a difference between moving "towards" the opponent's path and moving towards the opponent. In this play, she moves towards her opponent's path; perfectly legal. Don't confuse the two.

As she is moving slightly backward (obliquely) at the point of contact, she's actually moving away from the opponent at that point.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

Once again, the rule says toward, not forward. There's a difference. You can move toward someone without moving forward (which is actually what the center did). And you can move forward without moving toward someone that's to the north of you.

If the defender was moving "toward" the offensive player and made contact, the contact would have been on the side / shoulder. In the play presented, the defender moved to maintain LGP in the (changing) path of the offensive player. PC foul.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

Once again, the rule says toward, not forward. There's a difference. You can move toward someone without moving forward (which is actually what the center did). And you can move forward without moving toward someone that's to the north of you.

When a defender moves in to cut a slasher off, they're moving toward the dribbler. Doesn't matter what their shoulders or torso are pointing; it's towards them. Therefore they have to take responsibility for any contact drawn due to their movement. The center could have easily stopped her movement and ran parallel with the slasher and made a play on the ball. Instead, she moved under the dribbler's forward movement and made contact.

You're confusing the dribbler's movement towards the defender for the defender's movement towards the dribbler.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by KMBReferee

When you cut off a slasher, you're moving towards that player.

That maybe the most ignorant statement I've ever read on this forum.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That maybe the most ignorant statement I've ever read on this forum.

Yeah, I don't get it. How else would you play defense.

To be quite honest, that defender made one of the best defensive plays I've seen all season and she was rewarded with a personal foul. Too bad, really.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That maybe the most ignorant statement I've ever read on this forum.

I agree. I can't believe i'm hearing this kind of interpretation from someone. It is so wrong in so many ways it seems likes a rookie coach or men's league player talking instead of an official.

If he's truly an official, it is no wonder we have so much trouble getting consistency (across officials) when we have officials that are calling things like that and using terminology...terminology that actually reveals he really doesn't know the rule but is winging it based on common mythology.