Buzzer failed to sound @ end of period

[Mac Ref]

Situation: Trail calls a foul at the end of the 2nd period. The buzzer failed to sound @ the end of the quarter. Only one clock. Lead was not watching the clock and trail reported the foul. Opposing coach told officials the clock had already stopped before the foul occurred.

The referree talked with the time keeper who stated the clock had not stopped b/f the foul occurred and that the buzzer would sound when the clock was turned back on.

They went ahead and shot the two shot foul. After the throw in the clock was turned back on and the buzzer did not sound. The Ref. took the points off since the buzzer failed to sound. Comments???

[Kelvin green]

Personally they messed it up all the way around.

1) these guys should have known what the clock was. Depending on thier pregame some one should have had the shot. (In my games, I generally still have trail taking the final shot. ) Someone should have had the clock and the buzzer and should have figured it out long before it go that far.

To shoot foul shots and then take them away is crazy in my mind and I cannot think of the rule that would support this at all.

The problem is that they did not know what the time was. They have to have definite knowledge. The auto horn was off or broke. How did they know the foul happened after the 0:00 mark and no horn? They called it. They shot 'em. Score it. They should have had the timer make sure the auto horn was on, then when the switch is thrown the horn goes off. How much time was left on the clock? Noone knows. They should have turned it on and then killed play and lived with one mistake but not turning the mistake ito a bigger mess by doing things not remotely in the rules.

[Mark Dexter]

Huh?

Let me see if I get this straight.

I'm assuming the clock showed :00 (or :00.0 if 1/10ths show).

Clock hits 0 right when the whistle blows - timer stops the clock, and no horn is heard. (Was autohorn on?)

Now, if this is a clock where the horn is turned off when you put the clock back to stop, I would tend to agree with the R (just make sure the foul is erased, too - as it was after the horn.)

If, however, it is not that type of clock - I think you have a buzzer malfunction type situation. If the timer didn't know, count the foul, shoot the shots, and blow it dead after the inbound.

[firedoc]

I agre. There is absolutely no mechanism in place to remove points scored during the foul shots in this situation. The foul could have ben negated, prior to the shooting of the shots if the oficials had definite knowledge that time had expired. Since this was not the case, and the table was of no help, call the foul, shot the shots, count the points, and end the game imediately after the ball becomes live. I'm glad I wasn't the ref in this situation.

[A Dutch Ref]

If I don't hear the buzzer and a shot goes in, I count it, unless my partner or I saw that time has expired...

ADR

[APHP]

As the rules states, the "horn" ends the quarter--not the clock ".00". The referee has to assume the clock was stopped before the horn sounded and must continue with the game. (i.e. shootng foul shots). Once the clock was restarted and the horn did not sound, obviously the game is over. The referee has the authority to rule on any points not covered by the rules. If the officials (referee) can not detemine wheather or not the clock was stopped or started properly, he has to rule that the "goal(s) counts". The referee can't assume anything-he has to have definite knowledge of a situatiion before changing/cancelling a goal. From your post I don't see now the officials had "definite knowledge" that the horn sould have sounded and can't therefore, cancel the goal. He can "assume" that the horn sould have sounded, but he did not have definite knowledge that it should have. Count free throws.

[cmonref]

thou cannot call/rule on what thou cannot see!! there are some exceptions, but this is a good general rule.

[bard]

And I had a game last night where the buzzer wouldn't stop! The darn thing blasted for a good 30 seconds (although it seemed longer) before someone got it turned off. And at one point, about a third of the lights went out.

[gsf23]

I've kept the time the last two years for HS varsity. A few times I have had the refs tell me that if a shot goes at the end of a quarter they may come to me for help if there is some doubt or a malfunction. In the case above it was said that they asked the timer and he said the foul happened before the clock expired.

Now, there should be time left if the foul happened before the end of the quarter, they should have asked how much time was left, put that time back up, shoot the free throws and continue with the game.

If the horn didn't sound after that, the ref can blow the whistle and end the quarter.

In this case I think they needed a timer that was on the ball and knew what was going on.

I even had an instance at the end of the quarter when one ref thought the bucket was good, the other thought it was not. They confered and then came to the table and asked what I thought. I told them how I saw it and they made a ruling. (no basket) Guess I am saying that a good timer can really help out in a situation like this.

[Kelvin green]

GSF23,
One thing you said that I disagree with. If the foul happened before the buzzer that there should be time left on the clock. This is true for the NBA, but it is not true for HS ball. With the lag time rule of stopping the clock, the timer has a second to stop the clock. You may have a whistle a second and horn. Quarter/game is over.