4-15-4Note3: It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once."

So the player can, while holding the ball, touch it to the floor, without dribbling. I saw a kid, in a pick-up game, set the ball on the floor and take his hands off of it as part of a really pathetic shot fake. He then picked the ball back up and dribbled. Violation?

We're not likely to see this in a real game, but...

What if he but the ball down on the floor and then ran around the opponent, ala Harlem Globtrotters, and then came back to the ball picked it up and dribbled?
What do you have...if anything?

RD

I wouldn't think you can call setting the ball on the ground the beginning of a dribble..... so I'm thinking nothing besides TURNOVER opportunity....

Step back a little farther, stupid and it's mine.... ahhh haaa it's mine anyway! Lay-up.

I have to think about this situation more, but I think there is nothing to call. HOwever, I do know that if a player is on the floor, with knee or sitting, then places the ball on the floor, and then stands up and picks up the ball, it is a travelling violation.

You want to bet? Now that ESPN2 is showing these AND1 guys on their tour all the time, and the video tape is everywhere, I'll bet there will be lot of crap like this in the fourth quarter of not-close varsity boys' games this year.

And I think you will also see on those And 1 tapes that there aren't any officials standing around making calls either.

I'm a coach also, and if any of my players tried that crap, they'd be on the bench before they could finish the move.

bard,
I've got a violation, not when the ball is released, not when it is retouched, but when/if it is picked up <u>and dribbled</u>.

Dribble may start with release of ball to floor.
Dribble ends with two hands on ball.
Number of steps between starting and ending is irrelevant.

mick

I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation. I realize there's room for a difference of opinion, but consider this: the only time I can imagine anyone attempting a showboat play like this is in a blowout game, and a hot dog play like that might lead to a some rough play by a team that doesn't appreciate being made to look like the Washington Generals. Call the violation and don't risk any nonsense.

Stan,
Good like with your HUGE district game tonight!


(FWIW - Stan plays with the Big Girls.)

I disagree about it being a dribble. The case of the player sitting on the floor comes to mind. It is a travel for that player to place the ball on the floor, stand up, and pick up the ball. Yet, that player may legally start a dribble and stand up. So, placing the ball on the floor and picking it up is not a dribble.

Now, consider the exceptions to the traveling rule where a player tosses the ball over the head of an opponent and catches the ball before dribbling the ball to the floor. That is considered traveling...the player is considered to be "virtually" holding the ball. If he tosses the ball up while standing stationary, nothing. I believe these situations are analogous to the one at hand. The player deliberately releases the ball but has done so while still in full control. If the pivot foot moves in the meantime, it is a travel. If the pivot foot doesn't move, nothing.

Camron,
Your cases are fine, but are not the same.
In your cases, you have taken the "Floor" out of consideration, and that creates "a whole nother smoke".
mick

There is nothing about the dribble rule that allows this to be the start of a dribble. It wasn't pushed, batted, or thrown <em>to</em> the floor. The examples I gave were the only cases we have regarding a player who has deliberately released the ball that was not a dribble, pass, or shot. In both cases, the player was treated as if they were holding the ball even though it was out of their hands.

what if?
 

player catches pass in front court, defense drops
into paint, player then places ball on floor, lifts shorts
picks up ball, starts dribble? hope it never happens, but what do we have?

Holding the ball while it is out of the hands and on the floor, must be Copperfield. ;)

Cameron,
I have never heard of this "virtually holding" concept. Although, it, like most of what you write on this board, is rather interesting.
I have always thought that the reasoning behind why the play in which a player places the ball on the floor, gets up from the floor, and then picks up the ball is considered a travel was because the rules committee felt that this was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the traveling rule--so they put it into the casebook. 4.43.5B
I have to believe that if the player is upright and holding the ball, the attempting to avoid a rule rationale would not be a factor, and thus, placing it on the floor and letting go would constitute the start of a dribble. I must say that, in my mind, this maneuver qualifies as pushing the ball to the floor. It certainly wasn't lifted to the floor, and if it didn't bounce, then it wasn't dropped either. That leaves pushed.
My ruling is double dribble violation, if the player picks the ball back up and dribbles.
Otherwise, a technical for taunting should be considered depending on the score and situation.

How would it be cirumventing a rule if putting the ball on the floor was a dribble? It would be starting a dribble on the floor, which is legal, and standing up to continue the dribble, which is also legal, and the player would have used up his dribble. That rule only makes sense if it is not a dribble to place the ball on the floor.

The player on the floor is trying to avoid having player control while getting up, so he places the ball on the floor.
As I said before, I believe the rules committee doesn't want this player to be able to circumvent the traveling rule in this manner, so the casebook says this is a travel.
Unfortunately, the casebook does not tell us why it is a travel--just that it is.
Now, that being said we cannot tell if the reason behind this ruling is that the committee deemed the player to still be in control of the ball, just as if he were holding it, or if they consider the placing of the ball on the floor to not constitute a dribble.
Also since this casebook play deals only with a player on the floor, we cannot infer that placing the ball on the floor while the player is in the standing position would be treated in the same way. We simply don't have a good example.
Therefore, I have to believe that we must rely on the definition of a dribble. This rule is written to cover "normal" situations in which players are standing upright. According to the wording of this rule, placing the ball on the floor, seems to meet the definition of a dribble.
I will conclude by saying that it makes sense to consider actions to be in the category of the definition that they meet, (By this I mean, if something meets the definition of a pass--it is a pass. If something meets the definition of an intentional foul, that is what it is.) UNLESS the rules committee has made a specific exception.
These exceptions can appear in the rules book, ie backcourt exceptions and the exception in the dribble definition for holding the ball and touching it to the floor, or they may be presented in the casebook.
For example, we have been discussing in another thread how throwing the ball off a player's own backboard with no intent to try for goal, clearly meets the definition of a pass and if this player is the first to touch the ball again it would then qualify as a travel, BUT an exception has been made for this specific action in a casebook play. Hence, it is not a "self-pass" and not a travel.



[Edited by nevadaref on Nov 22nd, 2002 at 03:12 AM]

Think about this
 

As I read the discussion, these questions come to mind:

What would the ruling/status be if A1 receives a pass an then:

1. Sets the ball on the floor and picks it up again without moving any feet.

2. Sets the ball on the floor, ball rolls 5 feet, A1 moves both feet in order to pick it up again.

3. Sets the ball on the floor, ball rolls 1 foot, A1 pivots to pick it up again?

My personal opinion is to treat each of these as a dribble and therefore a legal move. Yet I can see arguments going both ways (the elements of a dribble - release of ball, ball touches floor; and the case of a traveling violation when a player on the floor puts the ball down to stand up).

The reason I set forth the three examples above is that the ball moves on the floor in all of the examples, even though in example 1 the movement of the ball on the floor could be unpreceptable.

Re: Think about this
 

I think everyone agrees to that point.
The question lingers: After the ball is put on the floor and picked up, what can the ball handler then do with the ball in hand?