We had a good discussion last night at our Association meeting.
A question came up about when to start the clock after a free throw.
Some of the Veterans said to "chop" it in when the ball hits the floor...(When the free throw ends) Some of the "Rookies" said that per the Rule book it is the same as a throw-in, wait untill the ball touches or is touched by a player on the floor.
We read the exact wording from the rule book but had different interpretations.
When does the clock start after a free throw?

RD
(I'm with the Rookies...start it when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the floor.)

per NCAA
 

RD,
Starting the Shot Clock depends on the sitch:

NCAA 2-13-5 Start the timing device <li>when a player inbounds legally <b>touches or is touched</b> by the ball on a <u>throw-in</u> or, <li>when a team initially <b>gains possession</b> from a <u>jump ball, an unsuccessful try for a goal or a loose ball</u>.

I am willing to believe this, too, is then intent of HS Shot clocks.

mick

I don't think that Rookie Dude was necessarily talking about the shot clock, although I agree with you about that ruling.

On a missed FT, the game clock should start when the ball is touched by a player. The shot clock should start when the ball is controlled by a player.

Chuck

Chuck,
I read about as well as I listen.
It is I who is <b>shot</b>. :(
mick

:confused: When it hits the floor or is touched or touches a player is how I was taught.

Thanks mick and Chuck,
You are correct Chuck...I was talking about the game clock.
Very good rule interpretations on a shot clock though, mick.
Thanks to both of you.

RD

It's spelled out in R5-9-3 in the NFHS rule book.Clock starts on a missed FT when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the floor.

RD,

Read this link from NFHS, it will clarify and prove Chuck's post.

http://www.nfhs.org/PDF/Basketball/B...0%20timers.pdf

mick

Reference in the NCAA rule book is R5-11-3.Same language as Fed book.Clock starts when ball is touched by or touches a player on the court.

Good call, JR.
That horse was dead as soon before it hit the ground. :)

You are exactly correct....BUT:

and here is where the confusion began,

Rule 5-9-3
...If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
Rule 5-9-4
...If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

We need help from an English buff or someone that is well versed in proper punctuation...perhaps Rainmaker?
Why is there a comma after "touches" in 5-9-4 and NOT A COMMA after "touches" in 5-9-3?
Hmmmmm, is it because of the prepositional phrase beginning with "after", following "a player on the court" in 5-9-4?

...or if the rules makers wanted the clock to start when the missed FT hit the floor they would have written it:
"the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by a player on, the court." ????????

Whew...;)

RD

Yeah, that's it! :)

DI

Rule 5-9-3
...If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.

This means that after the free throw is missed, and play will be off the rebound, the clock will start as soon as a player touches the ball, or the ball touches a player (like bounces off his head, for example).


Rule 5-9-4
...If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

This means that after the last MADE free throw, the clock will not start until the thrower-in has released the ball to the court, AND a player on the court touches it, or is touched by the ball (the ball hits a player's knee, for example).


Both rules could be written with, or without, the COMMA.

If you have veteran refs thinking that the ball gets "chopped in" when a made free throw hits the floor, they need to attend the next clinic for new referee candidates. Why the heck do we put our arm up after the last made free throw?

....No, No, No,
I guess I explained it wrong. Not "chop" in the time after a made free throw...but after a "missed" free throw has hit the floor. That was what the discussion was about!
But thanks for the reply,

RD

RookieDude:

Sorry I misunderstood your original question. Anyway, if you read my last post (and several others), it clearly states the rule that the ball has to be TOUCHED after a missed free throw (in order for the clock to start). If it hits the floor untouched, the clock will not be started until a player touches (or is touched) by it.

But, you knew it all along.
As I said before , some veterans need a "refresher course."

I rarely comment on the grammar on this board, reserving my show-off moments for the times when the mistake is amusing, or when it makes a difference in the meaning. In this case, Rookie Dude, the difference that you cite is simply a mistake by the writer. They should, indeed, have put a comma after "touched by" in the second case as they did in the first. At least, I am assuming from the various interpretations that have been handed down that that would most accurately represent their meaning. You are also correct that to put the comma after "..a player on" it would completely change the meaning as you outlined. YOUR grammar is much better than the Fed's and the confusion is well explained in your third post. If you want, I will send you an application to the I. M. Shirley Wright Fan Club. You would be welcome!

Speaking of going back to school for the veterans . . .

I'd like to see a few more officials take a look at when to start the clock on the jump ball. Seems to me like a lot of U's chop the clock when a team gains posession.

yup, it needs to be touched by a player on the court for it to be live. otherwise, don't chop it in. that was a question on the test and was almost word for word from the rule book.

Not quite.

The ball never becomes live when it's touched by a player on the court. There are only 3 ways of making a dead ball live (being touched on the court is not one of them).

$5.00 from the BktBallRef pool if you can find what those three ways of making the ball live are.

1. Jump ball
2. Throw-in
3. Free Throw
These three methods are the only way of getting a dead ball live.
.

RD



[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 21st, 2002 at 03:36 PM]

wow!! you guys pick up on everything!! you are correct. My usage of "live" made the statement incorrect. it's good to know some officials on this forum have such an indepth knowlegde though, i can see how it might come in handy as the season progresses.

Two places where something along these lines will come in handy:

(1) On the test.
(2) On a throw-in, the ball is live, so you can have a regular personal foul for contact (and not an intentional technical).

BTW, for cmon, at what point does the ball become live in each of the 3 situations?

"BTW, for cmon, at what point does the ball become live in each of the 3 situations?"

Jump ball=when the toss leaves the referees hands.

Free Throw=when the ball is at the disposal of the free thrower

Throw in=when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower.

Q: When does the clock start in all these situations?

A: when the timer starts it if the clock is functioning.