Bad Sportsmanship Karma

[rainmaker]

Okay, first of all, I don't really believe in karma. But it sure looked real this afternoon...

This was a 7th grade boys B team game. The 8th grade B teams were going to play next, and they were sitting directly behind the bench. With about 40 seconds left in the game, and team A ahead by 20, team B had the ball in their backcourt. The 8th graders behind the bench started saying, "9...8...7...6..." The dribbler panicked, raced down to the three point line and shot, just as the 8th graders were at 1. The clock said 29, though, so the 8th graders were laughing, but they shut up in a hurry when the shot fell! I had intended to stop the game and give a little sportsmanship lecture, but decided they had probably learned their lesson!

[LarryS]

I don't know about a lecture...that is the first time I've heard of someone actually falling for that. The player should know the game situation. However, I can see where you are coming from. Last night I had a boys JV game. Home team up by 30 with :15 left in the game and one of the players pointed out that he that the visiting center had violated the 3 second rule. I just sighed and shook my head...like I was going to call that.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, first of all, I don't really believe in karma.

I've been a believer ever since the NCAA tourney. Texas Tech bounced in the first round. . . Indiana reaches the finals. Karma? Or coincidence? You decide

The 8th graders behind the bench started saying, "9...8...7...6..." The dribbler panicked, raced down to the three point line and shot, just as the 8th graders were at 1.

This actually still happens quite often at my HS Varsity games, although it's usually the fans that try it. Also, the players never fall for it.

Chuck

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This actually still happens quite often at my HS Varsity games, although it's usually the fans that try it. Also, the players never fall for it.

Chuck

Technically, these were fans, since they were 8th graders, and this was the 7th grade game. Also, I would guess that they won't fall for it again, but you can't blame them -- it was 7th grade and it was the B team!

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by LarryS
I don't know about a lecture...that is the first time I've heard of someone actually falling for that. The player should know the game situation. However, I can see where you are coming from. Last night I had a boys JV game. Home team up by 30 with :15 left in the game and one of the players pointed out that he that the visiting center had violated the 3 second rule. I just sighed and shook my head...like I was going to call that.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "like I was going to call that"... if you saw the violation, why would you not either:

1) Call it, or
2) Verbally indicate that the player should get out of the lane?

This is assuming you saw it. If you didn't see it, you coulnd't call it anyway. My understanding is that you are supposed to call the game the same from the beginning to the end, and the fact that one team is up by 30, and there are only 15 seconds left should have no impact on your choice to call a violation or a foul.

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Okay, first of all, I don't really believe in karma. But it sure looked real this afternoon...

This was a 7th grade boys B team game. The 8th grade B teams were going to play next, and they were sitting directly behind the bench. With about 40 seconds left in the game, and team A ahead by 20, team B had the ball in their backcourt. The 8th graders behind the bench started saying, "9...8...7...6..." The dribbler panicked, raced down to the three point line and shot, just as the 8th graders were at 1. The clock said 29, though, so the 8th graders were laughing, but they shut up in a hurry when the shot fell! I had intended to stop the game and give a little sportsmanship lecture, but decided they had probably learned their lesson!

Jewel,
I think you are trying way to hard to be fair.
I'm glad you said nothing.
mick

[greymule]

Larry S, I'm a baseball ump, not a basketball ref, but one of my best friends is a long-time high school and junior college coach. We were talking about umpires stretching the strike zone in baseball blowouts, and he mentioned his own frustration with basketball refs who, before varsity games, would keep JV blowouts going by calling minor infractions and not letting the clock run out. I'm sure he would agree that you were right to overlook the 3-second call you mentioned.

Especially at the lower levels, the ump who calls everything by the book will make a lot of enemies. I suspect that's true in basketball, too.

[devdog69]

Originally posted by drinkeii

I'm curious as to what you mean by "like I was going to call that"... if you saw the violation, why would you not either:

1) Call it, or
2) Verbally indicate that the player should get out of the lane?

This is assuming you saw it. If you didn't see it, you coulnd't call it anyway. My understanding is that you are supposed to call the game the same from the beginning to the end, and the fact that one team is up by 30, and there are only 15 seconds left should have no impact on your choice to call a violation or a foul.

Don't know how long you have been around, but the fact that one team is up by 30 and there are 15 seconds left has everything to do with whether or not to call this violation. If an official is not acutely aware of the game situation they are not doing their job.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by devdog69

Don't know how long you have been around, but the fact that one team is up by 30 and there are 15 seconds left has everything to do with whether or not to call this violation. If an official is not acutely aware of the game situation they are not doing their job.

Being aware of the situation of the game is one thing - but are the rules different at one time than at another? I don't remember seeing this one in the rulebook...

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by drinkeii
Being aware of the situation of the game is one thing - but are the rules different at one time than at another?

Very good point. The rules are not different at one time from some other time. So remember the rule: Never, ever, ever, ever, ever call 3-seconds on the team that's down by 30. Ever. Doesn't matter if there's 15 seconds left in the game or if there's 10 minutes left in the first half (Heaven help you in that case!!!).

My first juco game was last Friday and it was not as competitive as I'd hoped. The home team had pulled out to a 25 point lead or so. I could've called about 5 illegal screens on the visitors in the last 3 minutes and I called exactly. . . zero.

Remember the rule.

Just my 2 cents.

Chuck

P.S. -- if you are tempted to ask "Well, where is that rule written down?", I'll tell you where it's written: In your assignor's and your observer's notebooks. So ignore it at your own peril. ("Let me face the peril!" "No, no. It's too perilous.")

[Edited by ChuckElias on Nov 26th, 2002 at 11:47 AM]

[devdog69]

Originally posted by drinkeii

Being aware of the situation of the game is one thing - but are the rules different at one time than at another? I don't remember seeing this one in the rulebook...

you are right, it's not written in the rulebook, some officials have enough trouble understanding the spirit and intent of what is in there, can you imagine trying to get them to understand such a concept that a situation that occurs in a tight ball game may not be called the same as in a blowout...errr. guess that is what I am trying to do.

[RecRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by drinkeii

[i]
This is assuming you saw it. If you didn't see it, you coulnd't call it anyway. My understanding is that you are supposed to call the game the same from the beginning to the end, and the fact that one team is up by 30, and there are only 15 seconds left should have no impact on your choice to call a violation or a foul.

For me it is all part of game management. Why rub salt into the wounds of the loosing team? Why risk an outburst where you would have to T or even eject the center? Plus as an old mentor of mine would say, “If you are looking for 3 seconds than you are not refereeing the action game.”

[drinkeii]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RecRef

Originally posted by drinkeii

For me it is all part of game management. Why rub salt into the wounds of the loosing team? Why risk an outburst where you would have to T or even eject the center? Plus as an old mentor of mine would say, “If you are looking for 3 seconds than you are not refereeing the action game.”

But if you're not looking for 3 seconds, you're ignoring part of the rules which you are supposed to enforce. I guess I don't see how you can officiate when you choose which rules to enforce and when - if so, it is the only sport, and I officiate 3, that the rules are applied differently depending on what part of the game you're in. That sounds the same as the guys who choose not to call handchecks the way the rule is written, but ignore them because they don't think they're a violation. How can you have a game without rules, and how can you run a game if you pick and choose which rules to enforce and when to enforce them entirely at a whim? (or because someone said "ignore this rule under these circumstances")...

[RecRef]

Originally posted by drinkeii
[[/B]

But if you're not looking for 3 seconds, you're ignoring part of the rules which you are supposed to enforce. I guess I don't see how you can officiate when you choose which rules to enforce and when - if so, it is the only sport, and I officiate 3, that the rules are applied differently depending on what part of the game you're in. That sounds the same as the guys who choose not to call handchecks the way the rule is written, but ignore them because they don't think they're a violation. How can you have a game without rules, and how can you run a game if you pick and choose which rules to enforce and when to enforce them entirely at a whim? (or because someone said "ignore this rule under these circumstances")... [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I'm going to take it that you are new to this game. Know the history of the 3 second rule? Know advatage/disadvatage as it applies to 3 seconds? Know what will happen if you call every violation and foul? Know about being blackballed by ADs and or coaches?

[drinkeii]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]

Originally posted by drinkeii
Being aware of the situation of the game is one thing - but are the rules different at one time than at another?

Very good point. The rules are not different at one time from some other time. So remember the rule: Never, ever, ever, ever, ever call 3-seconds on the team that's down by 30. Ever. Doesn't matter if there's 15 seconds left in the game or if there's 10 minutes left in the first half (Heaven help you in that case!!!).

My first juco game was last Friday and it was not as competitive as I'd hoped. The home team had pulled out to a 25 point lead or so. I could've called about 5 illegal screens on the visitors in the last 3 minutes and I called exactly. . . zero.

Remember the rule.

Just my 2 cents.

Chuck

P.S. -- if you are tempted to ask "Well, where is that rule written down?", I'll tell you where it's written: In your assignor's and your observer's notebooks. So ignore it at your own peril. ("Let me face the peril!" "No, no. It's too perilous.")


(My post starts here - I can't get the indent to clear for some reason - drinkeii)

But it isn't written in any rule book - and if an assignor is basing their decisions on rules that don't exist, it is no different from officials calling the game based on their own rules, rather than the rules that exist for the game. How can you have a game when people make their own rules?

[Edited by drinkeii on Nov 26th, 2002 at 01:24 PM]