table error makes ref look bad
 

At GV state tourney game. I am there as a spectator.

A32 commits a front court foul. Coach immediately sends sub to table. L reports foul clearly and correctly. Two man game (yea, don't ask why a state tourney game is two man), so refs rotate and B makes another sub just before the throw-in.

Now twenty seconds later the tables buzzes and asks for clarification on who the foul is on. Ref says A32. Table responds there is no A32 in the game (she was subbed quickly). Ref is now looking around at the floor trying to find the offender, and finally changes the report to A3 because she kinda looks like A32.

The real problem was the sub reporting quickly while the ref was still reporting. The table got distracted and the wrong player got the foul.

Anything the ref could have done? He held the sub while he reported, but the table was still confused.

20 seconds after the foul I would not have changed it based on that information. I have changed numbers before (did it just the other day) but not so long after the foul with the reasoning being #32 is not in the game. The official(s) should have been aware there were subs brought into the game since the time of the infraction.

Other than remembering that A32 had subbed out immediately after the foul call? Not really.

I guess he could have asked who got subbed out. Or if there was an A32 in the book.

Notice that the scorer is or isn't scoring.
Presuming it was noticed that the table was confused, fix the confusion before continuing.

Which leads me to the next question, how many of you notice whether the scorer records what you tell them before continuing with the game?

I'm making eye contact with the scorer every time I report something. If I'm constantly having to wait on the scorer because he's not paying attention, then that's an issue that's going to be addressed.

I ensure eye contact; but I don't make sure he writes anything down. I have to have a certain level of trust until I get evidence to the contrary.

When reporting the foul, make sure to have eye contact with the scorer & timer, so that both receive the information.

One thing you didn't mention was where was the sub, in front of the scorer kneeling or standing, or was the sub off to the side kneeling or standing? Also was it a one book table or a two book table?

If a two book table have the official scorer confer with the other book about who the foul was on & make sure they are in constant communication throughout the game about who scored & fouled and the running score & foul counts.

Whyinthehell would we care if the timer knows who committed a foul? The only official information on the scoreboard is the time.

recording the foul on the scoreboard, for one. even if not official. Also depending on the communication structure of the table, the timer assists the scorer with who scored &/or fouled.

If the only official item on the scoreboard is the time, then why have everything else posted as well? The coaches use both the scoreboard & the scorebook(s) for information pertaining to the score & fouls.

JR point is simple; we don't care if the timer knows or not. If he doesn't know but needs to, he can get it from the scorer. My only concern is that the scorer gets it. Anyone beyond that is irrelevant to me.

The rest of that information on the scoreboard is superfluous. There's a reason why games can be done with a scoreboard that only has the time and the score. Team fouls and player foul counts are just for the fans. I'm not going to ensure the timer is paying attention. If he does, good for him. If he doesn't, not my problem.

Even then, the score isn't official. I could do one without a scoreboard and be perfectly happy. Just give me a clock and an arrow.

Well...I'm not going to go that far. :p

And no team foul count.

This is beyond unacceptable for any crew working a state tournament game.Get through the game and report it to the appropriate authority (School AD or tournament assignor).In my games I get the foul recorded while my partners make sure the officials get any subs in.This is because I employ a two part procedure for recording fouls-A.Cross out the personal foul in the players foul count & B.-Record player # committing foul next to the appropriate # team foul.It gives me a second check if a coach wants to question my foul count.
Varsity crews (table and floor) are supposed to be the best of the best (especially at this time of year).At my school we take pride in providing one of the most experienced table crews for our area (2 vice principals who were coaches and myself).I am curious as to the experience level of this crew rsl-were they kids,adults, or a mix?In our state crews (during the playoffs) are supposed to be made up of adults.I worked three road playoff games for my school last week and found only one crew to follow this rule.The other two crews had one adult running the main board and kids doing the book and shot clocks.

The crew was all adults, but young adults in their twenties. I am guessing they hired students from the university hosting the tournament. They were mostly professional. There was a large contingent of referees right behind the table. Our association often shows up to support the refs who get the state bids. That is why I was there. The timer clearly knew some of the referees and was joking with us, maybe more than he should when he was working.

I must the say the quality surprised me a little. It is the first round with eight games lasting all day. This was the last game of the night and I'm sure they were a little tired. Also, only having two refs surprised me as well. I expected three man crews for the state tournament. Overall though, the officials were good and one of the two games I watched was really competitive.

That's a long day! There is one school in another association out here which schedules its boys and girls basketball tournaments on the same week and same days.These are immediately after Christmas so they get their alumni college students to work the table during the day and their regular crew for the last two games.The game times are 9AM,10:30 AM,12:00 PM,1:30 PM,3:00 PM,4:30 PM,6:00 PM,and 7:30 PM.They would alternate boys and girls games by time.They total 32 games worked in 4 days.
At our school we run boys and girls basketball tournaments but on back to back weeks.My total of games worked is 24 games in six days for those two weeks (Thurs-Sat.)

SCalScoreKeeper,

Since you do Varsity games, what's the level of communication like between you & the timer?

How important is it to you that there is that communication between you & the timer?

Concerning those schools that did not follow the rules is there anything that you might be able to do about it?

Eagle,

I will handle these questions in reverse order!

*Unfortunately there is no consequence for violating this regulation so there is really no point in reporting it.All of the playoff table crews I have seen so far have done an excellent job this year.We do have official ball contracts with Spalding to use certain models of volleyball,basketball,and soccer balls and there is a consequence for violating that regulation (loss of one home playoff contest-if eliminated will carry over to next season).

*The communication between my timer and I is basically limited but essential to the administration of the game.
Pre-Game: Other than the exchange of announcer sheets which contain the rosters and starters of each team it is fairly limited.
In-game:I'll say something if it is off such as team or player fouls or points.Also we'll communicate to make sure he is timing the interval for the right type of time-out.We also both track fouls so we communicate to confirm the fifth foul before hitting the horn.

Since California is a shot clock state the clock operators sit next to each other while the scorers sit next to each other.That basically limits your communication to essential conversations only.

Washington's a shot clock state as well, here for the varsity games at the school I assist at, the shot clock operator is next to the home bench. The Timer & Official Scorer sit in the middle of the table with the other scorer next to the visitors' bench. Of course there is also one sub-V game in the gym before the Varsity games but we've managed to keep the table setup the same.

Unfortunately, for Sub-V games in the secondary gym (where I'm almost always at :( ) the Official Scorer is next to the home bench, with the timer next to them. The other scorebook is next to the visitors' bench with the shot clock operator. I have tried to change it around to like it is setup in Gym #1 but the coaches want their books next to their benches, which can create discrepancies more times than I care to count.

Unfortunately for the Sub-V games in either gym, it's the timer that handles the AP.

I was curious as to the communication between you & the timer because of the possibility of keeping track of the fouls on the scoreboard.

Eagle,
He tracks the fouls on a separate sheet from my scorebook.If there is an issue at the first dead ball I will go and we will check foul by foul to make sure the board is correct.At our school too the timer handles AP duties and documents the times it is used.None of our officials have said anything about it-in fact they say we have one of the better varsity crews for our area.Next year tracking the arrow in my book is my personal point of emphasis.

And how many awards have you been given?? If one of the better/best in the area, you should be getting some accolades :).

I'm a bit surprised about hearing that about the AP since 2-11-7 says: "Record the jump balls for the alternating-possession procedure & be responsible for the possession arrow."

Though that's great to hear that's a POE for you next year as well.

I've heard of an announcer keeping track of fouls on a separate sheet, but not a timer.

My reasoning for stating earlier that eye contact should be made to both the scorer & timer, is that almost all gyms have the scoreboard set up that track either player fouls, team fouls or both, as well as having the bonus signal on the scoreboard. So the foul counts will be posted on the board as well, depending on how confident the timer is in posting that information.

It's few & far between that have the bonus indicators located on the scorers' table. Unless the table is one on those with a scoreboard built in or a table design like we have here. So generally the officials are using the scoreboard for information other than just the time left, even though that's the only official information.

Here's the thing, chief. I couldn't care less if the foul counts are on the board, because even if it says 6, I'm still going to verify with the scorer before I start administering bonus FTs.

If the timer wants to get that information, it's on him to pay attention. I only care whether the scorer is making eye contact.

Snaq,

Depending on the game, that information may be required to be up on the board.

I know during 3A/4A Regionals, we were required to have the player foul counts & team foul counts on the boards, as well as player points & who was currently in the game.

The same can be said for the JUCO tournament that is coming up where I am currently scheduled to work scoreboard/timer.

In cases like that, either the timer will be paying close attention or the timer & scorer will be in constant communication.

I think it is good for both to hear it and know it. Just makes it less likely that there will be an error as they check they they each heard/have the same thing.

All an official can do is report the number and make sure that the scorer is making eye contact with them. I will not report if the scorer is not making eye contact. Usually then you can avoid these situations. After that it is easy to lose the number after many things unless the player sticks out.

Peace

"Required" by whom? Not the rules. If the venue or sactioning body requires it, it's still not my concern. Again, if the timer wants to (or is required to) put the information up on the board, it's up to him to pay attention. I'm not waiting for him and I won't even know if he got the information.

I agree, but I don't think it's the officials' responsibility to ensure the timer is paying attention or to force eye contact with the timer.

For the JUCO Tournament, it's required by the league.

Also for WIAA, (RockyRoad & the others can verify) for playoff games the scoreboard is used for not just the time, but for the foul counts.

Nowhere did I say it was required of the timer to make eye contact with the Reporting Official, I said it was a recommendation that the timer also make eye contact. However it makes things so much easier if the timer is also making the eye contact when a foul was reported, to eliminate the chance of a reporting error.

Generally the coaches get their information from the scoreboard, not the scorebooks.

BTW Table crews are not sexist as both men & women work the table.

You know how no one remembers who the speaking captains are? Well when I'm reporting fouls I totally zone out as to who the official scorer is. I look at the person in the middle of the table (usually the timer). Works out well b/c I notice that they echo what I said to the 2 scorers.

Again, from the officials' perspective, it doesn't matter.


No, you said:
My point is that if the timer wants/needs the info, it's his responsbility to get it. It's not on the official.

Good grief. :rolleyes: If I was easily offended, I might think you were accusing me of being sexist simply because I failed to make my sentence more difficult to read.

If you didn't notice, I did add in her & she in your original quote. Hence why when I say things pertaining to table operations I am mentioning a specific position & not gender, as the table crews can be mixed.

Though in some ways it'd be easier to have an all-male table crew (less raging hormones) LMAO :cool::rolleyes::eek:

Ok when next season comes around, when I'm timer/scoreboard I'll just have the time on the board and nothing else. If I get yelled at for that, I'll tell whoever is yelling at me that I was told it is not required information & that I got that information from you so they'll have to complain to you as well.

Come on CHS! :rolleyes:

It's required for you to do your job. It is not a requirement for the officials. That's where your confusion comes in. The only thing we (officials) need on the scoreboard is the time, it's the only OFFICIAL information that is displayed. All other OFFICIAL info is in the book--personal fouls; running score; team fouls; time-outs; team members; players' numbers.

Here's the kicker. You'll get yelled at, the officials won't. I'll repeat myself one more time on this: if the timer wants/needs the information, it's up to him/her/it/them/thym/whatever to pay attention and get it. I'm not slowing down to make sure two people are making eye contact with me before I report.


Thank you.

In reality, I tend to do this as well. One of the things I'm working on is to actually look at the scorer rather than the timer. :D

At least you caught on that I was being sarcastic. (although I didn't put any emotes)

I know that the information on the scoreboard is mainly there for the fans.

Depending on the table crew, however, the timer is the most constant one looking at the reporting official.

Remember awhile back, the topic about table setup, it is for reasons like this that I was asking. The primary constant is that the timer is in the center of the table. The scorer is never always on the same spot every game, even though the timer & scorer are to be seated next to one another.

Probably because the scorers don't carry tasers.

Technically it's the scorer that is supposed to record that information not the timer. Although the timer records the information on the scoreboard, it's not the timer's responsibility.

What would happen if I decided to be a scorer for a game?

Speaking for officials everywhere, we really don't give a sh!t.

I am trained in all table positions, for one. Even though it's been about 10 years since I've actually done scorer duties.

Did you ask everyone what their thoughts are? If not, then technically you cannot speak for everyone.

I'm somewhere!
 

+1

In this case, he can.

That is why when you work with a table with a scorer in stripes int makes a big difference. Its a nice touch when it happens.

That's why we put the official scorer in the middle. We know that the official will come to half court and report a foul.In our eyes it only makes sense for the official scorer to have the seat even with the division line because that is where the report will occur.

+1

Actually he does not have to speak for everyone. I have never in all my years gave a darn who was working the table until they did something where they needed to be removed. Only once did I have to remove someone and he was a problem for an extended person to that program.

Peace

Don't take it too hard, cheasgle, but there it is right there.

We all have our job to do at a game. That inludes the popcorn lady. And part of our job is to make sure the chseagles of the world do their job. But if they don't, we just stop the game, find the AD, and say "Hey there, Mr. AD, I got me a faulty chseagle here. And this particular chseagle is beyond repair. Can y'all find me a new one?" And the AD says "No, problem. You there...popcorn lady...I need you to time the game. I know it's a step down in prestige but I got me a broken chseagle needs replacing and all my spare chseagles are out being de-wormed. I'll get Mort, the ticket-taker, to take over for you. He's just sitting around on his hiney doing nuthin' anyway." And the game goes on.

Reporting Area ...
 

The reporting area is a lot bigger than that. Three point line to three point line.

He didn't say everyone, he said everywhere. I'm pretty sure that everywhere there are officials, there's at least one who doesn't give a sh1t.

Really? The only time I ever report from the division line is when I happened to make a call from the division line. Usually a handcheck or similar foul, although once I got to report a technical foul from immediately in front of the table.

True, we also place the scorer in the middle so that the clock operators have access to the power supply.In our set-up we have to run extension cords to the table for the shot and game clocks as well as the sound system.We put the fans on one side and the teams on the other.A lot of our people will report from the 10 ft line on the volleyball court but those people that do college will come all the way to half-court.

That surprises me, a lot.

I do a little bit of college. I rarely come to mid-court to report. If I do it's most always because I will be the new lead going the other way. It's when I report from mid-court that I usually encounter the most traffic between me and the table crew.

How long of an extension cord?

I wish more gyms were setup with the fans on one side of the gym while the teams & table are on the opposite side.

For our main gym here, we run a 25-ft. extension cord from a 6 outlet surge protector under the scorers' table 6 ft. to the plug-in located in the bleachers. As of yet still using wired scoreboard & shot clock controllers.

Eagle,
We use a 3 ft secondary cord and then a 15 ft or so extension cord to access the outlets in the bleachers.Keeping the fans over on the other side is a great idea if you can pull it off.My AD was the former boys coach and he said after the first season in this set-up that we should have done it years ago.

In the main gym I do not know how it could be done as the home student section is directly across from the visitors' bench.

The local community college has their gym set up right, as the gym is built with the bleachers only on one side of the gym. The benches & table are on the opposite side.

Eagle,
In your set-up which we use once a year (homecoming) I would suggest to your superiors that a section about 4 rows high be roped off immediately behind the table.It gives you a little bit of breathing room at least from the fans.We put signs on those seat that limit them to school staff only!

Our scorers' table has the locker room hall way right behind it.

The fans are off to the sides, except when walking in & out of the gym.

However that idea could be used in gym 2 where the scorers' table is in the stands.

I have been planting in the AD's & Principal's minds that for the next scoreboard, get a Daktronics Scoreboard with wireless controls.