baiting a T?

Troward · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 10:29am

last nights subvarsity game I called an intentional foul on A1 for "wrapping up" a guy going in for a lay up in a non-violent way. A1 was upset with the call and said" Oh common, what did I do?" I responded with "it is an intentional foul because you were not playing the ball".
A1 replied with some CURSING that his coach has taught him not to let the shooter get a shot off once you give the foul so I gave him a TECH.

in post game, my partner expressed feedback that he felt I baited A1 into the TECH by replying to him at an emotional time. He recomended I just walk away and report the intentional foul. My opinion is that officials should respond to formal questions, not statements - but ignoring the player usually is worse then engaging with the player.
My partner said that this thinking applies to a coach asking about a call, but not a player.

Mostly like to get some more opinions on this please?

But also looking for affirmation that it is indeed an intentional foul when a player blantantly "bear hugs" a guy going in for a lay up - even though he holds him up & does not hurt him?
Even if the play (call) itself is controversial that does not excuse a player from cursing, correct? If A1 had just expressed displeasure with the call, but not cursed, I would have given him more lee-way and not a TECH because of the emotion in reacting with the call. agreed?

thanks again
GTW

w_sohl · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 10:40am

A bear hug is almost always an intentional foul, better off explaining to the coach and letting him explain it to his player.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 10:55am

Troward, without seeing it, from your description I'd say it was a good call. And you definitely did not bait the player. Now having said that, my personal habit is not to talk to the players until I've reported the foul. I don't even think it's a conscious thing. It's just my habit. If a kid says "I didn't touch him!" or "What'd I do?" I usually just ignore it.

If it seems like he's asking a genuine question, I may take a moment as you did, but I think that's pretty rare for me to do. My mantra is "the less said, the better"; unless, as I said, I feel there is an honest question that I can answer.

So while I don't think you did anything "wrong" necessarily, it's not generally what I do.

Chuck

rockyroad · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 10:55am

Absolutely an intentional foul...absolutely a technical foul...you really did nothing wrong - assuming that your reply to the player was as calm as you made it sound in your post...

APHP · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 11:41am

I agree that the best thing is to ignore "questions" at this point...he's knows the deal...what's to be gained by discussing/talking/answering his question(s)....nothing for you, but he can pick up a tec..."ignore him & the question". Did you bait him, no! But neither did you have to go there.

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 15, 2002, 07:12pm

If the player is asking a question, and really does want info, you could say, "You'll have to talk to the coach about that." This lets you reply, but doesn't give him any ammo. It also gets you away from the charge of baiting him. Even if you were totally baiting him, though, that's no excuse to curse.

DrakeM · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 17, 2002, 08:18pm

I agree with Rocky. If you answered the player in a professional, calm manner, then there's nothing wrong with that. IMO nothing wrong with answering a direct question, even if it's a STUPID ONE!

Roy McCoy · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 18, 2002, 03:11am

You definitely did not bait the player intentionally. The T was your only choice at the moment and was therefore a good call. However, in 17 years of officiating, I have found that it is not wise to reply to a question such as what you were asked. Pretend you didn't hear him and go on. It is ok to answer an honest, sincere question, but one leave the ones like this alone. That being said, I advise you to forget this incident and chalk it up to experience. It won't be that last time you get criticism as an official. It goes with the territory. Put it in the proper context and focus on doing the best you can every time you step onto the court.

DownTownTonyBrown · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 18, 2002, 12:01pm

As Chuck and a couple of other have said, don't immediately respond. These type of emotional situations will diffuse within a second or two. If you pay attention to it, you add to the player's frustration and the only result from that is exactly what happend... a technical foul. It sounds as though you were justified in both of your calls but by being there after the initial call, you maintained, if not created, the situation that resulted in a technical.

If you feel the player is sincere and not just whining, try saying something along these lines, "I've got to report this foul. Come with me and we will talk about it."

If he follows you, then finish your report and explain to him why it was ruled an intentional foul (has nothing to do with severity). If he doesn't follow you, then we're done. DON'T GO BACK AND FIND HIM NOW. You will create the same situation as before and everytime he will loose..... and therefore you also loose.

The calls you make on the floor should always be matter-of-fact and never confrontational. We are not officials because we like to fight with players; don't create a confrontation. Just report the facts.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Nov 18th, 2002 at 11:03 AM]